Fly! and 970

[Guest ftessler]

It's been very quiet around here lately; in fact, it's been a long time since my last post.As most of you know, Mac Fly! II has always lagged behind the Wintel version. Even top-end Macs with the best available video cards couldn't come close to PC performance, in part because of slower hardware subsystems on the Mac side. In my case, Fly!'s borderline performance under OS X has kept me from using it much. (I know that I could do far better with OS 9, but something in my OS 9 installation has caused Fly! to become very unstable on my Mac, and I literally never boot into OS 9 anymore.)I'm convinced that's about to change tomorrow, when Apple announces 970-based PowerMacs. If Fly! manages to run on these machines - and that's a big if - we may see frame rates that we couldn't dream of before.Tomorrow should be very interesting indeed.-Franklin

[Guest jsippy]

Heh, I was just thinking the same thing... "I wonder what kind of performance boost we will see on the G5's?"---John R. SippyChicago, IL, USAPowerMacG4 -Dual 5001024MB RAMnVidiaGF2 - 32MB

[Guest ftessler]

>Heh, I was just thinking the same thing... "I wonder what>kind of performance boost we will see on the G5's?">>>--->John R. Sippy>Chicago, IL, USA>PowerMacG4 -Dual 500>1024MB RAM>nVidiaGF2 - 32MBHi, John.I was about to place an order for the dual G5 last week, but I've decided to wait until they've been out for awhile. I bought my blue G3 the day they were announced three-and-a-half years ago. Although it was a good machine - and still serves as the family computer with its G4/500 card - it had some limitations compared to the rev B model.Right now, my dilemma is what to do about PowerBooks. My old Lombard simply can't run my Keynote slide shows, so I'm in the market for a 12" or 15". Like many others, though, I want to see what Apple does in the next couple of months.-Franklin------------------------------Franklin TesslerDP 800Fly! for Mac Co-moderator

[Guest jsippy]

Hey Franklin,Sorry about the long delay in writing back... Work has kept me away from my hobby a lot lately.I know what you mean about the PowerBook just not measuring up anymore. I have a FireWire PowerBookG3 (Pismo?) that I rely heavily on for recording and mixing audio on the road. It works great, but really gets bogged down if I have a lot going on.I'd like to upgrade to a G4 powerbook, but buying the 15 inch book would be silly compared to the feature set of the 17", but the 17" is just too big, and then there's always the worries of rev "a" bugs and stuff.I think I will just have to deal with the G3 a little longerCheers---John R. SippyChicago, IL, USAPowerMacG4 -Dual 5001024MB RAMnVidiaGF2 - 32MB

[Guest Allan Jones]

Hi guys!I'm jacked about the G5. My first priority is to get the stock beige G3/333 at work upgraded. I'll have to start work on another book in about 8 months, and the Beige has grown too long in the tooth to be compatible with the graphic designer's MDD running Jag.I remember rich saying that the real limitation of the Mac with FlyII was bus speed. At the time he wrote it, the fastest Mac FSB was 133mHz. The G5 changes all that!

[Guest ftessler]

Hi, guys.I'm jazzed about the G5, too, but I suspect that we're approaching the end of the line as far as running Fly! II is concerned. Even now I can't get it to do everything it's supposed to do on my G4 - I can't imagine that a G5 running Panther will be any more compatible, no matter what the speed. When the time comes that my main Mac can't run Fly! any longer, I may take one of my Macs and set it up as a dedicated Fly! computer under OS 9.As for PowerBooks, I and a few thousand others are eagerly awaiting Apple's next move. :)-Franklin------------------------------Franklin TesslerDP 800Fly! for Mac Co-moderator

[Guest Allan Jones]

I've been spending time upgrading and not Fly!ing, so I apologize for being scarce here.I managed to get one of my Fly! II installations to run in X. Performace wasn't too bad, but I still find I get the best experience by booting into OS9.I realize, like Franklin, that the chances of continuing to do this are slim. If new machines won't boot into 9, I suspect that means we're toast. All I can do with the equip I have is to spring for the expensive G4/1GB Sonnet upgrade. A couple of my fellow dwellers on the Apple Beige G3 forum have done so and report it to be a smooth upgrade. The only video trump card I have left is to get a PC Radeon that's had its ROM flashed. That way I can get to 64MB RAM, but I know the real choke points are processor and bus speeds.When I upgraded from a 300 to 500mHz G3, Fly! 2K responded nicely but I saw only an incremental change in Fly II--hardly worth noting. Maybe the G4 would help. However, I suspect that I am close to springing for a g5 and let the beloved Beige stay at its already enhanced state. I can't do much more to it. I can overclock the FSB from 66 to 83mHz but this is seldaom a stable config. About the fastest OC with stability would be to set the FSB to 70mHz--hardly worth the effort.As the Beige switches nicely from Jag to 9, I will still Fly, but it's pretty much reached its limits on my box.Now that the upgrade path is as complete as it's going to be without getting into money that could be better spent on a G5, I'm feeling the performance pinch. That said, the Beige is doing nicely with Jag, a USB 1.1/2.0 card, and USB mouse and joystick. Other than FlyII, everything runs like I bought a new computer.I can confirm that the TBM700 won't run under X; the dll for the inertial separator does show up in the Task Manager. It does under OS9. No word from ROTW on what's happening with the dll.

[Guest ftessler]

Hi, Allan.You've certainly done an amazing job extending the useful life of your G3. But, as you know, eventually you run up against the wall imposed by those parts of the computer that you can't upgrade.It sounds like you'll beat me to the punch with the G5. I can't get one until M$ changes Virtual PC to run on the new hardware. Hopefully, that'll coincide with the next G5 revision. :)I'm also holding out for a new PB. There's some speculation that the next rev will sport a G5 around 1.2 GHz, although I'm skeptical.-Franklin

[Guest jsippy]

I am sure that you have all noticed the new PB line up, especially the new 15" model starting at $1999, not a bad price, but to get the features that I really want the price would be more like $3000.I am not sure how long it will be before we see a G5 powerbook, but I suspect it will be a while.I did find something of interest while I was waiting for Apple to release the new books... If you happen to own a PowerBook G3 "Pismo" (the one with the built-in firewire ports) You can have its processor upgraded to a G4 - 500 starting at $240!Check out http://www.fastmac.com for detailsFrom what I can tell from what I have read at the xlr8yourmac.com reviews and forums, the upgrade is very stable, and unlike other processor upgrades, it will not change your PowerBooks internal serial number, nor do you have to send them your whole PowerBook.As soon as I save up the extra cash, I think I will purchase this upgrade and run a "Black" PowerBook G4 until the G5's come out---John R. SippyChicago, IL, USAPowerMacG4 -Dual 5001024MB RAMnVidiaGF2 - 32MB

[Guest ftessler]

Hi, John.A G4 upgrade is not a bad way to squeeze more useful life from a G3-based PowerBook. However, the fact that you can't upgrade the graphics processor is a limiting factor. For example, I use Keynote for my presentations. My department's Pismo will barely run slide shows, even at 800 x 600 and 1000's of colors, and my Lombard won't display slide shows at all.CPU upgrades are a better solution for older desktop Macs because you can upgrade the video card, too. Last year I bought a 500 MHz G4 for my old blue & white G3, and I'd previously upgraded the video card to a Radeon. That computer, bought in January 1999, is our main "family" Mac, and I expect it to keep on going for at least another year or two.I agree that it'll be awhile until a G5 PowerBook appears - maybe around this time next year. Meanwhile, I've got a new 15" PB on the way.-Franklin------------------------------Franklin TesslerDP 800Fly! for Mac Co-moderator

[Guest Allan Jones]

Franklin et al,Subject: Beating a no-so-dead horseHere's what's happened to the Beige G3 minitower since I acquired it:Bought in June 1999 from the Apple Store as a refurb. Came with a 300mHz G3 processor, 64MB RAM, 6MB VRAM running through an ATI Rage 64-bit chip on the logic board, and one 8GB HDD, and OS 8.5. I put an external dial-up modem on it, and plugged in an Apple 15" MS monitor I already had.Now it's a G3/500, has 640 MB RAM, two 7200 rpm HDDs (60 and 20MB) and OS9.1, 9.22 and X. I added an ATI Rage 128 Orion 16MB card about three years back, and replaced it with an original Radeon last March. Added a USB1.1/2.0 card and now have a USB joystick and multi-button USB optical mouse (they'll have to pry my 12 year-old M3501 ABD keyboard from my cold, dead fingers). And I have 1200Mbs cable internet. Oh, did I mention the 19" flat-screen CRT from NEC? Don't ask me to add it up!Most of this crazy upgrade activity (frenzy) was because I owned Fly! No complaints--I've had a ball doing the work myself, learned a bunch about Macs, met a lot of great new friends...and had Rich Harvey touch my heart. Life is truly good.

[Guest ftessler]

Allan,Macs often have longer useful lives than PCs, despite the fact that the latter generally have more upgrade options.So how much life is left in the old beige beauty?-Franklin------------------------------Franklin TesslerDP 800Fly! for Mac Co-moderator

[Guest bwilliams]

Hey Allan and Franklin,Glad to see you guys around here. I should have checked the forum more often.I upgraded my B&W 300 with the Sonnet G4 500. It runs smoothly and just fine under OS X 10.2.6. OS X is faster and more stable than under OS 9.2.2. My only problem is that another joystick died. I'm wondering why I keep having them die after 9 months of sporatic use. Time to buy another one.Speaking of processors, I took the big jump today and ordered the G5 2 GHz dual processor. It may be here by Friday. I'll use my Blue & White 17" monitor with it. I'll let everyone know how Fly II works out after I transfer files, etc. I bought my son the iMac 800 and qualified for the free upgrade to Jaguar. I'm waiting to install it on a partition on the G5. I guess I'll be beta testing that as well with Fly 2 on the G5.The G5 is a huge buy, but thinking of what it costs to keep the B&W running is almost as expensive. I've had to buy the drive controller card because mine is Rev 1 and won't take second hard drives. Bought the Radeon 7000, which runs Fly 2 great. Then, the G4 card. It adds up. I'm thinking that the G5 is fast enough to last a few years without needing anything. It ships with a good video card. Has USB 1 & 2, Firewire 400 & 800. DVD burner. I'm hoping the initial purchase will be enough for a long time this go around.I'm going to be plenty upset if Fly 2 isn't compatible. If not, maybe it will scream under Classic Mode if I can figure a way to force it to launch under it.Barry Williamsp.s. I bought the G5 at Infinity-Micro. I got a $300 break on the price compared to the other mail order places by using COD. The 3 year Apple Care was discounted too. They are about $120 cheaper using a credit card.

[Guest ftessler]

Hi, Barry.Congrats on the G5. Please let us know how Fly! runs on it (assuming it does run). I've never been able to get Fly! to run under Classic.My current Macs - a dual 800 at home and a dual 1 GHz at work - are adequate for most of what I do, but I may get a G5 at the next revision. -Franklin------------------------------Franklin TesslerDP 800Fly! for Mac Co-moderator

[Guest bwilliams]

Hi Franklin,Do you think OS X would default to Classic if it doesn't run? Is there any setting I could change with ResEdit if it doesn't run under 10.2.7 or Jaguar? I'm hoping it runs, but I'm still without a joystick for now. I may get another Microswindle Sidewinder 2 so that I have the spare parts from this dead one.I was thinking of waiting too, but the G5s are lower than the G4s when they came out. Also, the prices probably won't drop for a year. I didn't want to wait that long. Unreal 2003 barely crawls with the G4 500 upgrade on the B&W. I thought that a sign of the times for gaming.A dual 1 GHz isn't bad. Not bad at all. Those are pretty fast Macs.Barry