Disoriented AI planes!!

[Guest]

For everybody's benefit I'm posting recent e-mail and edited response by Jokke (with his implied permission!!):> After loading your AI traffic enhancements, noticed while flying at PAIN FIELD (PAE), that a number of small planes keep moving(circling) around the airport at very low altitude and even undergroung!!. This is observable if you set the AI labels with CTRL+L keys, and stay observing the whole area from a high camera angle (keys F5+Xxxx..). I'm not sure if the problem comes from the original AI traffic as presented in LG package or from specified AIPLAN.TXT or any other data file. I also have been using Chris Low'sAirport Packs. Please let me know if you have the same situation and give me your valuable HELP!!.Follows Jokke's reply:I can confirm this behaviour of AI Traffic. I have "standard" Paine Field, currently I don't have Chris's packages in Seattle area. So I noticed quite a many small GA planes flying normal way, but at least one Cessna had burried itself underground.To my knowledge neither mine or Chris's packages should not include any information change to the altitude of the airport or pattern altitude. Like I said, to my knowledge... Those are the two reasons I can come up with.I would like to know if this happens all the time, or occasionally? I mean are all of the planes underground, or just few of them, and do you notice this every time, almost every time or just sometimes?Can you figure out if those planes are flying pattern (practicing), or are they flying between airports? If they are flying pattern then you could try to restore the original Payne Field to see if that makes any difference. If that helps then it could mean that FLED messes up something with airport files. I suspect either airport altitude or pattern altitude. Haven't seen those values in editable format though.If those planes are flying between airports, then the problem is mostllikely in the AI routes they use. This I haven't touch yet, but it is on my list... It is quite common to see AI planes flying trough ground, and my intention is to map their routes and then change them to make them use air.Jokke

[Christopher Low 5,325]

Jokke,I doubt that it has anything to do with AI planes in the Paine Field pattern. It is EXTREMELY likely to be AI planes flying between waypoints. I noticed that the minimum altitudes for sectors of many AI routes in the Seattle area are zero, whereas they are generally more carefully calculated figures for routes in the SanFran area. Since most of the LAND terrain is (for obvious reasons) going to be at a greater altitude than zero, it is quite possible that this is one of the causes of AI planes flying into the ground.Right, so when are you going to get it fixed ? :-lolChris Low,ENGLAND.

[adams 1]

I've modified the file 'aiplane.dat' but maybe it helped only partialy. No minimum altitudes are zero in my file.B.Adamski

[Guest]

Bogdam:Couldn't find the AIPLANE.DAT but so did my pc search function!!. Please, how could I view a *.dat file?; if I try to open it with a Notepad text program, the result is a scripted page with lines such as

[Guest napis]

I can confirm this behaviour of AI Traffic. Check images.Peter

[Guest]

Hi All,Few answers or some experience I have got about this issue:1) Planes parked/taxiing on the ground. They get burried in ground totally or partially in some airfields. Reason: They take their "ground altitude" from the altitude of the airport, and if the airport area is not totally flat they get under ground (or above it). Check e.g. Sea-Tac North terminal.2) According to the documentation (LG White Paper) the zerovalues Chris mentions should be maximum ground height. Plane route altitudes are other values in the same file, often other than zero, but also some zeros in Seattle area (usually airport way points). I have experienced a bit, but no usable results so far. So planes on route between airports can happily fly through ground. And no, there is no fix yet Chris, but some day... ;-) 3) File "fltdnsty.dat" can be read with Editpad or imported in Excel. My document about ai traffic describes the contents of it. File "aimodel.dat" is not really readable. You can get the source "aimodel.pl" from "FU3PLANE.ZIP" found in Avsim Online Library, and compile it with any Perl to make a dat. These files are in both region directories.4) Bogdan, was it "aiplan.txt" you modified? That file contains the route information between airports. Could you tell more how you changed it and what kind of results you got? Maybe a test version for people to download and try it out?5) Finally, guys, please report back what you found! Please try with and without the enchanced AI, and tell here or via email to me if there is any difference in plane sinking rate. Napis: Those screenshots sure show a Cessna "a bit low", but more info is needed. Where are these shots taken, and could you figure it out whatever the Cessna was between airports or practicing?The difference here is very important, since AI planes don't seem to look in "aiplan.txt" at all when they are near airports, they use some other method to find routes and altitudes. So please, give all info you can, either this thread or via email, and it improves the chances to find out what might cause this.At this moment I have no idea if there is anything else there than bug in exe that causes this. More answers, more info, and more chances to see a pattern in this mess.Best Regards,Jokke

[Guest]

Hi Jokke:My observations at PAINE FIELD is the AI planes flying very low or moving underground were on-route flights since: 1. They move fast at cruising speeds. 2. They don't stay on a normal pattern around a runway. 3. They cross through the airfield buildings and across active runways, as if they were overflying the airport. 4. Some of them flew away long distances (not a loop) coming out of the ground and cruising across encountering buildings etc. 5. I should have listened tower commands, if these were calls with this type of traffic. Sorry, at didn't...but next time will!!.Will follow your indications for accessing *.dat files. Hope will learn a bit about the innards of FU3.Thanks,Polov

[adams 1]

Sorry it was aiplan.txtB.Adamski

[adams 1]

4) Bogdan, was it "aiplan.txt" you modified? That file contains the route information between airports. Could you tell more how you changed it and what kind of results you got? Maybe a test version for people to download and try it out?Yes, I forgotten it's name. I'll send you the file. I only changed zeros for 100 or sometimes more ( 200 ). The real heights are in second file ( I've seen it thousands times & I don't remember !!! :-hang in the airport folder.B. Adamski

[adams 1]

Here is my 'aiplan.txt' for the Seattle region. I've made some modifications & the map from my site :www.geocities.com/adamsbpl/FU/FU3/seadle.htmisn't apropriate for this file. There are some legs for the outer terrain at the end of the file. You may cut them.POINT WP01 = (+48:14:0,-121:59:0)POINT WP02 = (+48:00:0,-123:12:0)POINT WP03 = (+47:30:0,-123:10:0)POINT WP04 = (+47:18:0,-123:45:0)POINT WP05 = (+47:30:0,-122:30:0)POINT WP06 = (+47:19:0,-122:12:0)POINT WP07 = (+47:09:0,-121:39:0)POINT WP08 = (+46:52:0,-121:32:0)POINT WP09 = (+46:46:0,-121:38:0)POINT WP10 = (+47:22:0,-123:08:0)POINT WP11 = (+47:53:0,-122:08:0)POINT WP12 = (+48:08:0,-122:39:0)POINT WP13 = (+48:14:0,-123:03:0)POINT WP14 = (+47:49:0,-122:26:0)POINT WP15 = (+47:30:0,-121:47:0)POINT WP16 = (+47:30:0,-121:02:0)POINT WP17 = (+47:43:0,-121:12:0)POINT WP18 = (+47:48:0,-121:31:0)POINT WP19 = (+48:08:0,-121:25:0)POINT WP20 = (+46:58:0,-121:09:0)POINT WP21 = (+47:08:0,-121:19:0)POINT WP22 = (+47:39:0,-122:14:0)POINT WP23 = (+48:15:0,-123:28:0)POINT WP24 = (+48:15:0,-121:36:0)POINT 76S = (+48:15:8, -122:40:48)LEG 0S9-76S 300 500 300 0 3000LEG 76S-WP23 300 500 30 0 3000LEG WP23-WP01 30 1500 1500 0 3500LEG WP01-WP24 1500 5000 1000 400 7500LEG WA31-AWO 300 1000 300 0 3000LEG WA31-0S9 300 1000 300 0 3000LEG WA31-WN41 300 1600 300 0 4500LEG WN41-WP02 300 9500 1000 0 13000LEG WP02-WP03 4500 9500 9500 0 13000LEG WP03-SHN 7500 9500 300 0 9500LEG SHN-WP04 300 3000 3000 0 3000LEG WP04-WN41 3000 3000 300 0 6500LEG PWT-WP04 300 3000 3000 0 4500LEG SHN-OLM 300 1500 300 0 3500LEG OLM-WP03 300 3500 3500 0 10500LEG OLM-PWT 300 1500 300 0 3500LEG SHN-PWT 300 1500 300 0 3500LEG PAE-AWO 200 1000 2000 0 3000LEG PAE-S43 200 1000 200 0 1500LEG S43-WA38 300 500 300 0 1500LEG PAE-S13 200 500 200 0 1500LEG PAE-WA31 300 500 300 0 2000LEG PAE-BFI 200 1500 200 0 3000LEG BFI-SEA 200 1500 200 0 3000LEG PAE-RNT 200 1500 200 0 3000LEG RNT-BFI 200 1000 200 0 2000LEG RNT-SEA 200 1500 200 0 2000LEG SEA-PWT 300 2000 300 0 3000LEG SEA-2S1 300 1500 300 0 2000LEG SEA-S50 300 1500 300 0 2000LEG SEA-S36 300 1500 300 0 2000LEG BFI-WP05 200 1500 100 0 1700LEG WP05-TIW 1000 1500 300 0 2500LEG RNT-WP06 200 1500 1500 0 1600LEG WP06-TIW 1500 1500 300 0 1500LEG S50-WP06 300 1500 1500 0 1500LEG S36-S50 300 1500 300 0 2000LEG WP06-S36 1500 1500 300 0 2000LEG 1S0-WP06 300 1500 1500 0 1500LEG 6WA8-WP07 5000 5000 3000 0 8500LEG 6WA8-WP08 4000 6000 6000 0 9500LEG WA20-WP07 1500 7500 3000 0 9500LEG WA20-6WA8 1500 7500 5500 0 9500LEG WA61-1S0 300 1500 300 0 2000LEG S44-WA61 300 1500 300 0 2000LEG 1S0-OLM 300 1500 300 0 4500LEG OLM-TIW 300 1500 300 0 2500LEG WP07-WP06 3000 3000 1500 0 4500LEG WA20-1S0 1500 1500 0 0 4500LEG WA20-OLM 1500 1500 300 0 6500LEG TIW-PWT 300 1500 300 0 4500LEG GRF-WP10 300 1000 1000 0 3000LEG WP10-WP04 1000 1000 0 0 3000LEG WP04-WP11 1000 1000 0 0 3000LEG WP11-WP12 100 100 100 0 2000LEG WP12-WP13 100 100 100 0 2000LEG WP13-WP14 400 400 100 0 2000LEG WP14-TCM 100 1500 300 0 2000LEG BFI-WP04 300 1500 1500 0 2500LEG 76S-WA31 200 1500 300 0 3500LEG 76S-WN41 200 1000 300 0 4500LEG WA38-WA64 300 1000 300 0 2000LEG WA64-WP15 300 3000 3000 0 7500LEG WP15-WA04 4000 4000 0 0 7500LEG WA04-ESW 4500 5500 300 0 7500LEG ESW-6WA8 4000 7500 5500 0 10500LEG 6WA8-WA04 5500 6500 4500 0 8500LEG ESW-S36 4500 6500 300 0 8500LEG RNT-WA38 300 1500 300 0 3000LEG WP15-RNT 3000 4500 300 0 6500LEG ESW-WP16 5000 7000 7000 0 9500LEG WP16-WP17 7000 7000 4000 0 10500LEG WP17-WA60 2000 2000 300 0 4000LEG WA60-WP18 300 5000 5000 0 8500LEG WP18-WA64 2000 2000 300 0 6500LEG WP24-WP19 500 2500 2500 300 5500LEG WP19-WP18 5500 7500 5500 0 10500LEG WP09-LG1 8000 9500 6500 0 11500LEG LG1-WP20 1000 7000 7000 0 11500LEG WP20-WP21 6500 6500 6000 0 8500LEG WP21-LG2 6000 6000 4000 0 7500LEG LG2-S60 5500 6000 300 0 8500LEG WP22-WA57 500 500 300 0 2000LEG 83Q-S60 200 1000 200 0 3500LEG W37-WP10 200 1000 1000 0 4500LEG 83Q-WA57 200 1500 200 0 3000LEG W37-TIW 200 500 300 0 1500LEG 2S1-WP05 300 500 500 0 1000LEG LG3-WP10 300 1500 1000 0 5500LEG SHN-WP10 300 500 500 0 3000LEG WA61-WA20 300 1500 1500 0 5500LEG WP08-WP09 4000 6000 6000 3000 12000LEG WP09-WA20 6000 8000 1500 1000 13000LEG WA20-WA51 1500 2500 400 300 8000LEG WA51-OLM 600 1000 300 100 6000LEG WA51-SHN 600 2500 300 100 6000LEG WA51-WP04 600 2500 1500 100 8000LEG WP04-WP23 1500 8000 0 0 12000LEG WP23-WP03 20 8000 3500 0 12000LEG GRF-TCM 100 300 300 10 8000LEG AWO-WP18 200 2500 500 0 10000LEG W37-S44 20 1000 200 0 8000LEG OLM-WA44 300 500 200 10 8000LEG WA44 GRF 200 500 200 10 8000LEG WA60-LG2 5000 6000 5500 2000 9000LEG PWT-S42 200 1500 300 100 8000LEG S42-83Q 300 1000 200 0 8000LEG 83Q-0S9 200 1000 300 0 9000LEG 83Q-WP02 200 11000 9500 0 15000LEG 0S9-2WA1 300 700 200 100 8000LEG 2WA1-WN41 200 700 200 50 8000LEG NRA-76S 300 1000 300 0 9000LEG NRA-0S9 300 1000 300 0 9000LEG NRA-0SSM 300 1000 300 100 9000LEG NRA-AWO 300 1500 300 0 9000LEG WP01-AWO 1500 1500 300 250 9000LEG 0rgs-2wa1 100 300 200 0 7000LEG DLS-PDX 300 5500 100 50 20000LEG DLS-WA20 500 9000 1500 200 20000LEG DLS-LAS 500 8000 2000 200 20000LEG DLS-MFR 500 8000 2500 200 20000LEG DLS-WP09 500 7000 6000 300 20000LEG 1S2-WP24 600 500 500 400 9000LEG WP09-PDX 4000 7000 300 200 14000LEG WA51-PDX 600 5000 300 200 14000LEG PDX-WA20 300 5000 1500 200 14000LEG CLM-WP02 500 2500 1500 100 8000LEG CLM-WN41 300 400 300 100 8000LEG CLM-WP23 300 400 300 10 8000LEG PDX-MFR 1000 5000 2000 300 30000LEG PDX-FAT 1000 5000 1000 200 30000LEG MFR-FAT 1000 7000 1000 500 30000LEG MFR-LAX 1000 8000 1000 100 40000LEG FAT-LAX 1000 7000 1000 100 30000LEG FAT-SAN 1000 7000 1000 100 30000LEG LAX-SAN 300 3000 300 0 25000LEG LAS-FAT 1000 8000 1000 500 30000LEG LAS-LAX 1000 8000 1000 100 30000LEG LAS-SAN 1000 8000 1000 100 30000LEG LAS-MFR 1000 8000 3000 500 30000LEG LAS-PDX 1000 8000 1000 300 30000LEG SMF-PDX 1000 7000 2000 100 40000LEG SMF-MFR 500 6000 2500 200 25000LEG SMF-LAS 500 8000 2500 200 30000LEG SMF-LAX 500 6000 500 200 30000