Landing?? the P51

[Guest]

I recently returned to FU 2&3 after some 18 months absence and, as expected, was impressed with its performance with a faster CPU and modern graphics card. However, an old problem still remains - it is impossible to land the P51 correctly and I have never seen such a "slippery" prop aircraft. Set it up in a smooth descent at 700 - 900 fpm, throttle at idle, full flap and 120 knots and as you round out it floats - and floats - and floats. Eventually the speed reduces to less than 100 kts as you cross the far end of the runway! If you approach at slower speeds [90 - 100], the aircraft is unstable in roll and yaw and impossible to control accuately. Interstingly the Arrow has similar characteristics - although not as badly yet the Beechjet performs as expected.Grateful for any clues on P51 approaches and how to slow the beast down!Many thanks

[Hans_Petter 1]

I had the some problems a long time ago. Actually, I'm still a mediocre Mustang pilot but on a good day a make pretty landings :-)Your speeds are sound. I remember "Dann" taught me to bleed off speed, coming in at 100 kias. 100 is very close to the stall limit and you might elect to keep the speed slightly higher until it's time to touch down. The floating is inherent to most taildraggers since you'd increase the angle of attack a lot as you flare to make a three-point landing. Thus, you get a surge of lift when you don't want it UNLESS you manage to be at the stall limit as you flare. If so, the aircraft will stall out and stop flying as the wheels touch. Now, stalling is a risky thing UNLESS it happens at the right moment. The right moment would be when the wheels are a few feet above the runway. Common errors:1) You come in too fast and float along the entire runway before the aircraft will land.2) You come in at the right speed and flare to make a perfect three-point landing -- 30 feet above the runway. Result: You stall, drop down and ruin the gear.3) You make a "wheel landing" (main gear only) and touch down nicely, only to nose over and mow the lawn with the propeller. Some taildraggers can do "wheel landings" (DC3) since their center of gravity is far behind the main gear. The Mustang, however, is very "nose heavy" and likes to tip forward. best regards,Hans Petter

[Guest twsimfan]

Hans' comments are excellent, very professional. Mine will be a little less professional... what works for me. Use all the other proper procedures as outlined by yourself & Hans... but DO NOT USE FULL FLAPS! In FU3 with the 'Stang doing so only generates a ton of lift... and will not slow the aircraft down. Use only 2 notches max. Hope that helps.

[Guest Dann]

I wish I still had my Mustang Landing Tutorial. The '51 does actually land rather accurately. IT WAS A BEAST!Tom, using the modified flight model (who did that one?) which allows the correct 60" of power to be attained, I find using full flaps no problem at all.Now, one thing to remember with the Mustang: it seems ground effects are over-modeled. So, that means watching the stall speed becomes very VERY important. Next, the (real and FU3) Mustang stalls, with full flaps, at about 85-90 mph, NOT knots!So, approach, trim, and lineup on the runway needs to be done early and at about 100-110 mph. From an instructor, regarding landing the real Mustang: cross the fence (just before the runway threshold) no faster than 100 mph and SLOWING. This is best done with power off, and using the trim to keep the nose UP on the FU3 Mustang.As was stated, most (myself included, until I did the research) tend to try to land the Mustang too fast: anything above 110 mph on approach and 100 over the theshold and power on, is too much.Speed will bleed down to stall quickly doing this, and if your glide slope was good to begin with you'll grease her onto the runway. Apply brakes gently until below 55-60 mph, or you'll nose over (over-modeled, from what I've researched).Bottom line: to land the P-51 well, get her to stop flying as you try to land her. As far as the game is concerned, if you can get the Mustang's wings below lift generating speed just before or just as you touch the mains down, you won't balloon the landings or you'll be slow enough to have not eaten up a bunch of runway by floating over it.Hope this helps some.Dan

[Guest]

Tom Wunder has the key. The more flaps that you use, the more prone that you are going to float, and bounce down the runway. Sure, you can perform a full stall / full flap landing, and that's fun too. But if you want to consistantly "stick" your landings, get them flaps up. 20 % is good, but zero % is better. The key is bleeding off your forward speed, using full, and/or partial flaps, before you reach the runway. Your final should be low and above 120 MPH until you are about 100-200 yards out from the edge of the runway. As you see your speed dropping past 120 MPH, get 'em all the way up. Continue to hold the nose up with the throttle, keeping it slightly above 100 MPH. If you let it drop below 100, it's going to fall like a stone. At about 6 Ft. high, gradually reduce the throttle to 100 MPH, but not less than, and she'll settle like a butterfly with sore feet. Learn to use that throttle, and she's a thing of beauty. > Jim

[Guest Dann]

I just flew a couple touch and go's with the Mustang, to refresh myself with it's traits.Full flaps, 100 to 110 mph approach, trim for glide path, and use the throttle to control descent (sink rate). If the runway moves up in the windscreen, bump the power up a little, if it moves down, reduce accordingly. A good glide path at 110 mph will be at about 15 inches on the manifold; I keep RPM's and Boost seperate in my Options. As you cross the threshold, chop the power and gently pull back on the stick and you'll land gently and have an incredibly short rollout.This is if you want to land the Mustang like the real thing. What ever little inaccuracies the game allows for, because of all the incredible calculations it has to go through, is up to you.The real Mustang, because of its laminar flow airfoil design, did NOT like slow airspeeds and was subject to some pretty severe stalls with the right wing dipping violently. Those who had to land the real fighters with less than 20 degrees of flaps because of battle damage usually ended up off the runways, or ground-looping the aircraft.Dan

[Guest jonpoint]

Landing the Mustang's easy - once you've spent a month trying to land the GeeBee ;)Actually, what Jim said here holds for me too - I've found the best approach is with flaps (the GeeBee's are either up or down - none of this 10 degree/20 degree stuff), using the drag to slow the plane down whilst still applying a bit of power to keep the speed OK, given the descent rate. Upon crossing the threshold at about 20', flaps up, cut the power then just keep her level. From my previous attempts (always needed a long runway), I can now land in most paddocks, sides of hills - you name it!Conversly, attempting to land with flaps down and you not only float down the strip but (in the GeeBee anyway) she bounces everywhere and scrapes the wingtips :-(I once read an article written by a young Aussie airforce pilot about his first days in a Mustang (Korean war). He reckoned there were two things guaranteed to have you peelin' spuds if you weren't careful - one was applying full power for takeoff from a standstill (the torque effect could overcome the tailwheel/rudder and have you careening off the runway - at full throttle, with the wing scraping), the other was showing ANY flaps after the tailwheel was down. His previous time was in a Buffalo so I can understand his problems (go like a pig, fly like a pig, land like a bus) :-hahPS I still find landing the Mustang a real challenge, especially with any wind around :-)Jon Point*************************(effyouthree@hotmail.com)*************************

[Guest DLM]

>DO NOT USE FULL FLAPS! In FU3 with the >'Stang doing so only generates a ton of lift... and will not >slow the aircraft down. Use only 2 notches max. Hope that >helps. Tom,That is what seem to be the problem with our simulated P51.You get plenty of lift but no drag using the flaps. When making the "Mustang Racer" i corrected this so that the flaps also generates drag in proportion to the extra lift generated. Now i can land the Mustang just as easy as any plane! :DDann,Markus Brunner is the man who made a modified flight model for the Mustang. // Daniel

[Guest glidernut]

Practicing short landings & take off,s.

[Guest glidernut]

Stil practising. :-wave

[Guest twsimfan]

Daniel,I have your Mustang Racer but it has been a long time since I've used it. I will have to give it a go today. Thanks for crediting Markus for that flight model... I was about to do that.Have a nice day. :-sun1

[Guest]

And I'm using ole number 51. Ya mean we have performance differences here ?Clue me in ?

[Guest Dann]

The stock Mustang in FU3 is limited to 47" of power. This is climb power.Markus' flight model (thanks guys!) lets you run the boost up to 70", though this is technically WEP (War Emergency Power) and is limited to about four or five minutes and no longer. 60" boost is the normal takeoff, then a power reduction to 47" and 2700 rpm for climb.I think Markus' flight model has a slightly faster roll rate, but I'm not sure (it's a tad too fast, the Mustang wasn't that fast around its axis, actually). The first 10 and 20 degrees of flaps, from what I can tell, do not actually provide any lift with Markus' flight model...I use them to slow the aircraft down (on the real plane, the first 10 degrees provided a fair amount of lift, it was known as "combat flaps" and used in the Mustang to decrease the turning radius).Since FU3 is severely lacking in the lift-induced drag area, this is a fair tradeoff.With the exception of smooth, short landings using only 20 degrees of flaps, the FU3 Mustang flies pretty close to the real one.Dan

[Guest]

Very many thanks to all for your help. Have now installed the Mustang Racer and have no problems in landing. The approach configuration has been tweaked to provide a much better reaction from the flaps and the aircraft is much more controllable down to the stall - 3 pointer short field landings are now "on".On the point of using only 2 notches of flap, I found that the FU3 model reacts as any high performance aircraft - you can easily run out of back stick on the roundout and a very low approach into a wheeler landing is the only option.

[Guest]

>On the point of using only 2 notches of flap, I found that >the FU3 model reacts as any high performance aircraft - you >can easily run out of back stick on the roundout and a very >low approach into a wheeler landing is the only option. FCD: Well, not exactly. I find it benifical to dial in some UP Trim when using flaps, especially Full flaps. Their excessive drag is going to slow you to the point of losing lift, and droping nose. Hence, you run out of "back stick" .This is why I prefer not to use flaps at all coming in over the hedge, and just hold that nose up with judicious use of the throttle.