Effect of crosswind on ground handling q?

[Ckeatin 0]

Hi everyone,I wasn't sure what to put in the subject line, since I'm not sure of the correct term of what I'm asking about, so I'll just give an example-In FU3,after landing with a crosswind, it seems the sim correctly models that you have to keep the (upwind??) wing down while slowing down. This is just based on what I've read; I'm not a real pilot.Is there a term for this behavior? And this doesn't appear to be modeled in either the Fly! series or MSFS... right or wrong?Thanks for any insight...

[Guest Motormouse]

"Hi everyone,I wasn't sure what to put in the subject line, since I'm notsure of the correct term of what I'm asking about, so I'lljust give an example-In FU3,after landing with a crosswind, it seems the simcorrectly models that you have to keep the (upwind??) wingdown while slowing down. This is just based on what I've read;I'm not a real pilot."Indeed it does."Is there a term for this behavior? And this doesn't appear tobe modeled in either the Fly! series or MSFS... right orwrong?"Sometimes called weather-vaning or weather-cocking, as in describingthe aeroplane trying to act in reaction to the wind as does a weather-vane (or weathercock,named because they are shaped like a cockerel) on a church spire or tower, there is no specific 'aviation' term.You're correct, both Fly! and Msfs don't do sideslip/yaw very well,the Flight Unlimited series (and particularly the 1995 Flight Unlimited 1) used a form of atmosphere modelling and fluid dynamicsdifferent to those other two sims, which results imho a better flight model.Its also the only sim that you can go gliding in and find ridge lift and thermal lift dictated by the current weather conditions too.In the original 1995 Flight Unlimited, you can do proper snap rolls in a Pitts Special.Welcome to the FuIII world!!:-wavePete

[Guest glidernut]

Hi Craig,There is a crosswind landing leson in your Fu3 as tsandard, but I ges you alredy know that.Anyway, as Pete says, theres lots and lots of things modeld in FU3 that just dont existin other sims, thats why I do all my gliding in FU3.Mined you, its harder to land crosswind with a wheal-drager like a glider, and what withmy preferance to fly with lots of wind for the slope lift, the chanses of having to landcrosswind is that much mor.But then, most of the time I dont even try, I gust land out where ever I can.glidernut.:-wave

[Christopher Low 5,331]

**which results imho a better flight model.**Amen to that :-)Chris Low.

[Guest jonpoint]

I remember my first crosswind glider landing. As we slowed down, just above the ground, I had to steer so hard into it ('weathervane effect') to keep the plane level that I thought I was going to rip the wheel out and snap the left wing on touchdown :-eekI didn't actually do any damage (bleedin' tough, the ol' L-13) but I was told afterwards that I should've been going a bit faster ;)FU3 does model crosswinds well, to the point that pedals are a must in even moderate crosswinds! Of course the M$F$ 'Armchair brigade' couldn't have that so they toned the effect down - to nothing... What? Pedals under the desk at the office? Oh no!:-wave******************* Jonathan Point *******************

[Guest Robs]

It just goes to show that the flight model is everything.FU3 has the best flight dynamics and I think you should fly the other simulators to notice the difference. The only sim that comes close is x-plane but the graphics tend to spoil it (but they are always getting better)The snap roll has been mentioned (high speed stall of one wing to make your plane a sycamore seed!)As has the gliding, FU3's real beuty is in it's gliding.Even the basic manoevers are interesting eg stalls. In FU3 and in real life, almost always one wing goes first and drops. In MSFS it just "mushes" straight ahead and drops in an unrealistic way and you lose all flight controls and the plane retains it's just pre stall attitude. Totally unbeliveable - I tend to stick to the helo's and big airliners in MSFS for this reason.Anyway I am glad you have noticed these effects because you will now look at all the other flight sims in a different light.FU4 - true fluid flight dynamics calculated on the fly- with thermals and turbulance and black land causing air to go up and water to cause it to drop and oh everything we have the proc poweer - I liked doing snap rolls! The flight dynamics are very important when you see them at work and undertandRobWant the race car equivalent - try GPL or Grand Prix Legends!!!

[Guest Robs]

It just goes to show that the flight model is everything.FU3 has the best flight dynamics and I think you should fly the other simulators to notice the difference. The only sim that comes close is x-plane but the graphics tend to spoil it (but they are always getting better)The snap roll has been mentioned (high speed stall of one wing to make your plane a sycamore seed!)As has the gliding, FU3's real beuty is in it's gliding.Even the basic manoevers are interesting eg stalls. In FU3 and in real life, almost always one wing goes first and drops. In MSFS it just "mushes" straight ahead and drops in an unrealistic way and you lose all flight controls and the plane retains it's just pre stall attitude. Totally unbeliveable - I tend to stick to the helo's and big airliners in MSFS for this reason.Anyway I am glad you have noticed these effects because you will now look at all the other flight sims in a different light.FU4 - true fluid flight dynamics calculated on the fly- with thermals and turbulance and black land causing air to go up and water to cause it to drop and oh everything we have the proc poweer - I liked doing snap rolls! The flight dynamics are very important when you see them at work and undertandRobWant the race car equivalent - try GPL or Grand Prix Legends!!!

[Christopher Low 5,331]

Rob,That's why I can't like MSFS. I prefer to fly "low and slow" in a jet, but only FU3 provides the control AND the graphics to enable me to do this.As for Grand Prix Legends, this is the ONLY racing game that I play. It is extremely difficult to master, which is what makes it worth the effort.Chris Low.

[Guest Robs]

The day I got under 10 mins at nurburgring was a magic day...can't repat it these days..I'm hopelessRoen just got 2.04....still not got the perfect lap!!!I understand your MSFS comments I tend to fly FU3 whan I feel like the fixed wing fixOn GPL do you modify the cars or tracks?Which web sites do you look at?

[Christopher Low 5,331]

Rob,My recent mission was to get within 130 per cent of the world records at all of the tracks that I have installed. I completed this a couple of weeks ago, and now I intend to get down below 125 per cent. Actually, I am already within this at nine or ten of the tracks.My current best time at Nurburgring is 9:48.91, and my best time on the Isle of Man track is 9:50.68 (this is more difficult to master, since there are so many turns).A time of 2:04 at Rouen is quite impressive. My sub 130 per cent time stands at 2:26.23, but I am confident that this will be broken without too many problems. I think that the trick with GPL is to make sure that you have a SMOOTH lap, as opposed to trying to go ridiculously fast. Like all racing, how you enter and exit a corner is crucial.I have not modified any of the car setups, but the individual tracks have been extensively overhauled in the graphics department.I visit the GPLEA forums, and also check the GPL track database at trackdb.d2g.com.If you are interested to know which tracks I have (or if you want to discuss GPL at length), then send me an e-mail. Tom and Bob might just decide that racing talk doesn't belong on the FU3 Forum ! :-)Chris Low.

[Hans_Petter 1]

Well, I've got pedals under my living room table and yes, my friends think that I'm nuts :-)FU3 has proper ground handling. MS FS does not. FS aircraft yaw and slide on the runway since the flight model doesn't factor in the lateral friction of wheels on the ground. Yes, as FS is concerned the aircraft may very well be at zero feet but the flight model doesn't quite "know" the meaning of wheels being in contact with terra firma.I like FS (sorry Chris :-)) but I've gotten used to severe shortcomings when it comes to taxiing and lateral forces on the runway. However, I think the crosswind / sideslip aspects are OK -- if you prepare to land in a crosswind you'll have to steer into the wind.But then, FS will encourage you to keeping crabbing, even after the wheels touch since it doesn't really matter where the wheels point. If you try that in FU3 (landing "uncrabbed") the aircraft will jolt and possibly, topple. The correct approach, namely to uncrab at the right moment, keep the upwind wing low and fight the wind as you align will be what works in FU3. Sure, that will work in FS too but since the flight model doesn't know that wheels won't roll in any direction (castor wheels?) doing it wrong won't have any consequences in FS.Sorry to say, FS has never had any proper ground handling. Most people don't know what I'm talking about so I guess it'll stay that way. Further, without rudder pedals or a twist stick a crosswind landing can't be managed properly. Since most people are happy flying with coordinated rudder (auto-coordination) I guess proper crosswind landing is a moot point.Hans Petter

[Christopher Low 5,331]

Hans,I remember the way that the Beechcraft Baron started moving in FS2002 when on the ground. Up to a certain level of power, the aircraft didn't move at all. Then, with a fraction more, it suddenly lurched forwards. There was never any sense that the plane was moving forwards because the engine power overcame the frictional forces between the wheels and the tarmac. It just felt like the software had detected that engine power had moved beyond some kind of invisible barrier, and so it "allowed" the aircraft to move. The only problem that FU3 suffers from in this respect is that your plane sometimes seems to get "stuck" in a slightly offset position when moving forwards. In other words, it is moving forward...but at a very slight angle to the side. Generally, it suddenly "snaps" out of this after a short time. Otherwise, ground handling in FU3 is excellent.Chris Low.

[Guest Robs]

Perhap Papyrus are the best team to do FU4 then? Their ground handling is fautless!GPL talk will now go off the forum. I will mail Chris.