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Donmo

I disagree with the denial of Commercial Posts...

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I have to disagree with this policy about commercial posts. This is supposed to be a discussion/news forum. That would include posts about new and upcoming products, or maybe products that are out now for consumers to buy.Instead of full denial of the posts, how about limiting them to certain content. Half the time we can only find out about certain products because someone stumbles across them and tells us. I for one like it when the vendors "show-boat" their products and give us the details of what's going on.I am starting to think that maybe we are becoming a little too restrictive around here. This forum is supposed to be about all things Flightsim, and the products that support it.I would hope that you folks put a little more thought into this subject before this gets too far out of hand." a concerned netizen "JohnnyKTUS

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Johnny, I agree,Also I think a clarification is required. Is it only this forum that "commercial" posts are not allowed or all the other forums. I make particular reference to the Screen Shots forum where it would have been a great pity had Peter Sidoli not been able to showcase his beautifu new images of the Seneca from Real Air. But since the images are still up, I guess I may have answered my own question.Cheers and thanks,Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/images/FSD_beta_tester.jpg[h3] FSD Aircraft "Around the world" flight.Now at KCRG (Craig Muni.) Florida, USA[/h3]Intel Celeron 850Tyan Tomcat i815T S2080 SystemBoardG Force 2 MX 400 64Mb VideoProLine CrystalView 17" Monitor512 Mb PC133 SDRAMWindows XP HomeCH Virtual Pilot ProCH Pro PedalsMSFS 2002 Pro full installFSMeteoFSNavigator

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Johnny, I respectfully disagree with you 100%, and I bet I speak for the majority here.If a commercial vendor wants to advertise their product, they should be forced to "buy" the banner space from Avsim.Somebody has to help pay for the awesome service provided to us by Avsim. A free service at that !Secondly, I for one do not want to wade through all the commercial vendor spam that would be present.A separate vendor showcase forum might be nice though. But, at a cost to the commercial vendors.Allen

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I could not agree more. The commercial producers of flightsim add-ons are working for a small group of users and do not have a lot of marketing instruments they can use. This forum is a great place also to get some information about releases of those programs. I would agree if this board would be clearly misused as a kind of advertising board. But today this is not the case at all. Commercial vendors are using this in a very reasonable and sensitive way and are also people that add a lot of knowledge for benefit of the community. Please rethink you policy here.Alex

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Hi, my first impression and thoughts were pretty much the same as yours. But if I (we) read Francois

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How many companies get free space in media? Does Chevrolete, Delta or Budweiser? No. The commercial folks should pay to advertise just like any other commercial venture does. They're making money off of the backs of others if they don't. That's not good business.Don

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Agreed. Commercial advertisements have no business in public forums. Avsims front page announces commercial product releases regularly. And the vendor always has the option of purchasing ad space, which Avsim depends on. Besides, if the product is really worth purchasing, you'll hear about it. It'll be talked about. Word-of-mouth is still a great advertising medium, especially in a narrow scope community like flight simming.Mike Stone

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Well, even if they are not using Avsim's servers to host images, there is still a strain (and cost) when the thread is posted, and when people visit and reload it.If they want to advertise, they can ask Tom to post it on the main page... many commercial products are posted there, since it's a more appropriate space. Just remember what is posted in the forums' terms of agreement:The User shall not use the System to advertise or perform any commercial solicitation

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We've already seen where a user who posted information and pictures about Bill Lyon's new Waco had his message purged. I can understand a ban against blatant advertising in the forums, but, users discussing commerical ware *should* be allowed IMO. Of course, I don't pay the bills here so take it for what it's worth.However, the last time I checked, you could walk into Walmart and purchase Microsoft Flight Simulator 2002. Surely that counts as a commercial product, no?

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I agree that commercial advertising shouldn't be allowed, but there needs to be certain limits, as has been said. It's quite obvious that few people here actually support payware, and to add to that, if we just censor anything even relating to it, we're going to aid in the decline of payware even more. I've noticed that there have been quite a few posts from people stating their distaste with certain payware products, certainly this is considered advertisement (albiet, not good)...but why were the posts not deleted?I feel there should be limits, such as maybe letting people who don't work for the company/person selling the product post things such as 'mini-reviews'.Of course, as many people say, I do not pay the bills, I don't make the decisions, and if the AVSIM staff don't agree, then we have to live with it, but I just wanted to state how I feel about this particular subject.Scott

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If I may address this issue on behalf of a very small "commercial" developing partnership:There is "commercial" and "commercial". A company like Just Flight or Lago have substantial financial backing, employ many people and often (though not always) have a turnover to match. Generally the larger payware outfits can afford to pay for advertising.But for us smaller fry advertising rates are completely prohibitive - we would not only not make any profit - we would make a huge loss. For us this may improve a little now we are developing for Fs2002 which we estimate has about 20-30 times the market compared with Fly2 addons.A recent addon we did for Fly, despite getting rave reviews from magazines, websites and customer feedback, barely broke even and for the development time worked by our team it works out to be a labour of love despite the "commercial" label. Not only that but we balance our output with freeware offerings as well. As an example our freeware metallic textures and airfiles for FS2002 (especially the Cessna 182s) have had thousands of downloads. We would like to continue this free service alongside our payware products and want to avoid if possible being a hard-nosed "out for what we can get" partnership. Restricting announcements as proposed by Tom and Francois to absolute zero forces us to reconsider our position on the payware/freeware mix. I'd rather that was not the case.On the other hand I recognise that peppering the forums with screenshots and posts masquerading as "info" whilst actually being a sustained advertising campaign is not in the spirit of things.May I respectfully ask the staff at Avsim to reconsider this issue on the following case by case basis: A company by company arrangement where by a restricted number of announcements/screenshots is agreed per product and the developer to stick rigidly to that allowance.We also mustn't forget that Avsim's provision of "support" forums, for a given developer, inherently has an advertising element within that provision, though I concede that such forums are also hard work for the developer. Many potential buyers of addons logon to the support sites to assess the feedback. If the feedback is good (which it generally is) then that is every bit as much a marketing advantage as paying for an advertisement (some would say more).As with all these kinds of issues, I feel a balance ought to be struck. Thanks for taking these points on board Avsim.Best Regards,Rob Young

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>>The User shall not use the System to advertise or perform any commercial solicitation Unfortunately, I am a bit confused. What is considered advertising? If I as a user see a commercial product or UPCOMING commercial product (PSS, PIC, DF, FSD, RealAir Sim) and post here about an upcoming product, is that advertising? It doesn't benefit ME financially, but am I indirectly advertising these commercial producers. I would say no.However, what if the hypothetical gets a bit more confusing. For instance, I am a beta tester for FSD and DF--both independent commercial producers. If I post here about an upcoming product, is THAT advertising? Again, I don't get any commission on the number of sale from being a beta tester. It doesn't benefit ME financially, but am I indirectly advertising these commercial producers. I would say no.What about if another user asks where he can find a stellar Cessna 310. Can I answer Dreamfleet is making one? Or likewise about a Porter.What about after the product is released?I am NOT trying to be a pain, but I have wrestled with this in the past regarding whether I could post beta shots as a beta tester to share with others. What constitutes advertising and/or commercial solicitation.Regards,http://home.earthlink.net/~snyders2000/name.jpg

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Hi folks,I can understand all the discussions going on about this subject, and welcome it actually.Let me just briefly confirm the current 'rules', and tell you that we are discussing some possible future changes amongst ourselves.Currently the rule (for ALL forums) is that we do not allow commercial authors/publishers or people directly connected to such individuals and/or companies to post announcements, news or ads about their products. With or without screenshots.Anybody outside that group, i.e. readers of AVSIM, may post messages about and screenshots of products as long as they have gotten these legally (and are not obviously playing 'strawman' for the commercial groups). This means that nothing stands in the way of enthusiastic (or not) reports of users of products and nothing stops our readers from discussing products.There is also nothing to stop commercial projects from being announced on AVSIM's front page. Anybody can send a news item to staff@avsim.com when he/she thinks it is news worhty.I hope this clears the air a bit for now, and I am sure Tom will get back to you all as soon as he gets home from work ;-) :-outta Francois :-wave________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online!email: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

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Hi Francois->>Currently the rule (for ALL forums) is that we do not allow commercial authors/publishers or people directly connected to such individuals and/or companies to post announcements, news or ads about their products. With or without screenshots.Am I correct to interpret that beta testers are NOT allowed to post screenshots?Regards,http://home.earthlink.net/~snyders2000/name.jpg

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Hi Rob,our messages crossed I think :-)Thank you for your thoughts. Peter Sidoli said similar things and we are aware of the differences and problems of various groups and individuals.As I said in my post, we are discussing possible solutions for the issue and I am sure we'll find a way that's acceptable to all.Kind regards,Francois :-outta Francois :-wave[table border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0][tr][td valign=bottom" align="center]"At home in the wild"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:avsim.com/alaska/alaska_051.htm|Don's Alaskan Bush Charters]"Beavers Lead the Way"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:www.avsim.com/vfr_center/mainpages/vfr_flights_main_page.htm]VFR Flight Center]"Looking Good Outside"[/td][/tr][tr][td valign=top" align="center]http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif[/td][td valign="top" align="left" colspan=2]http://www.fssupport.com/images/moose2.gif[/td][tr][/table]________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online![/bemail: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

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