I disagree with the denial of Commercial Posts...

[Donmo 6]

It certainly isn't PAYWARE that brings people to AVSIM. Just how many payware items are there in the library? The FREEWARE was the #1 reason in the polls as to why people even come to this site. I have found this statement to hold true on ALL sites. You have to look at the WHOLE site or you do miss something. True, sometimes they match to a tee, but other times 1 site gets news the other never does. I hit ALL the front pages. That is where the news releases are and they aren't tainted by peoples opinions as they can be in the forums.The elusive "scoop"! LOL!! I hear you there!!!!Don

[LAdamson 240]

Well Don, all I can say is........................ as much as I like airplanes, I sure miss those other two pics on your banner!!! :)L.Adamson

[Guest eko]

ROFL!!! Yes, yes! A return to the Bush Beaver days in the sig would be most welcome!!!I NEVER used to check the front page of AVSIM or FLIGHTSIM.COM... however, I have gotten into the habit of doing it, because I do notice that there are announcements there that are worth reading. I particularly now like the "files uploaded to library" listing done on the front page here at AVSIM. That alone will make me visit the front page.I do have to agree with Don about freeware being the engine. I would have to say that more than 50% (probably even more) of folks who visits these sites for downloads have never posted or even visited the forums. They are the silent majority, I would think, of hits to the sites, and they all come looking for new free goodies.

[Guest]

Don,I can see you are really worked up over this issue and I think I know why. I really am sorry that when you recently wrote to everyone in FSD separately asking about posting repaints of an FSD project that you didn't like the policy we had to explain regarding the FS2000 Porter repaints. I tried to explain to you that as it was a joint project we didn't have copyright control over all of it, so a blanket copyright had to apply. I regretted we could do nothing other than to ask you to wait and I did explain why. So, here we are 10 days later you appear to be taking an opportunity for some form of payback in all but name ... If you had have waited as we all asked we would have had some news today that would likely have pleased you. The next time you're talking with Didier, he will explain it to you.As to some sound suggestions here if there was a dedicated forum for new Commercial projects where developers could illustrate them and carry the bandwidth (as FSD always has done) - to eliminate costs to the site operators here - then we would have used it. But the fact is I posted nothing other than an invitation and I didn't see it as a hanging offence or a transgression. I now understand that was not the right thing to do by the rules, but it saddens me to see FSD castigated by you in all but name.One day you might want to take a real good look at a file library at FlightSim.com and search for my name. And that of Tim Dickens, And Jim Goldman. And Owen Hewitt. Enrico. Eric. Graham W ... the list is a very, VERY long one and they paved the way for the innovations you now take for granted. Some former Freeware developers (Adam S as an example) now work for Microsoft developing the MSFS product where their years of doing the hard yards was recognised. I think we (the above few names, and others) have individually and collectively more than fully paid our dues to Freeware and to you and I find your posting and your recent correspondence to FSD to be extraordinarily disappointing.I wonder how you feel about Fred's and Yannick's names being associated with Abacus and FSGenesis' Commercial Mesh Scenery? Maybe you should take that wonderful Beaver of Fred's and Yannick's off your signature graphic in protest ... ?I do hope you continue to enjoy the free Commercial software we have continued to provide you with. I am cartain most folks reading this would not realise FSD continues to support Freeware authors with advice, expertise, support AND a lot of nil-cost "Developer Copies" of our software as both recognition of their works and in support for Freeware authors - and we do this with absolutely no strings or expectations of thanks attached. Certainly that makes no commercial sense, but as I have said before, FSD's team apparently are out of touch with commercial reality - or that we really DO give something back to Freeware where we all shared our roots.

[Guest Timbo]

Bravo Steve! Very well said.[TABLE BORDER=0][tr][td]

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[link:timsfsstudio.home.attbi.com]Click here to visit Tim's FS Studio!] Updated June 11th!

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[Guest]

Hi Steve,I hope you don't mind me responding to a very small part of the above post, even though it isn't directed my way. I just wanted to point out that being a freeware or Free Software developer isn't a sort of prison sentence to the vast majority of freeware and Free Software developers. Its the preferred way we (and you in the past) choose to spend our resources... To build and keep community, better our skills through sharing and better our world in general. Its a privilege for me to be a freeware and Free Software developer.I realize that more than a few in the Flight Sim and some other communities may view freeware and Free Software development as "paying their dues" as you say. But I just wanted to point out from my perspective that there are many of us who don't approach freeware and Free Software development as a due to pay on the way to better things: it *is* the pinnacle for many.I as always, highly respect your work - both freeware and commercial. I have nothing against you or anyone else who chooses to developing for a commercial entity in the least. Thats absolutely yours and their decision and is perfectly valid if you choose. I just wanted to clarify the "paying dues" point from my own perspective.With highest respect,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest]

Hi Elrond,Completely accepted and agreed, all valid, and noted with respect. I have a high regard for you also : you are always a voice of reason and moderation (and advice). Much needed around here ;)Please indulge me for a minute. I wanna tell ya a tale.When I started out doing FS development yonks ago do you know who helped me the most ? Well I'll tell ya. It was Michael Verlin, and it's all his fault I'm doing FS development. That gracious gentleman from FL is a mighty fine developer and a good friend too. He was more than generous with his time, patience and encouragement than anyone else in FS. Most I found were unapproachable, arrogant SOB's who wouldn't give you the time of day. Michael encouraged me to continue with FS development and gave generously with his time. I learnt a lot about what I could do and what I couldn't do so well, and I eventually found my background and aptitude led me to an obscure dungeon from which there is no apparent escape. After a few years I found I was able to return the favour and over the course of several months I managed to transfer what I figured out about FS FD function back to Mike just after FS2000 came out, and now in his own right he does great FM work - but not just FM work and he works on other aspects of design.Everyone at FSD and I mean EVERYONE supports all manner of developers, be they advanced or ab-initio. We do it out of a sense of community, a community some would trash. We put back and we do it in bucket loads and we usually do it on condition of anonymity which often is disregarded and we are credited anyway. I figure I spend 15-20 hours a week helping other Freeware developers before I do anything for myself or FSD. I put back in spades and I am not alone and I do NOT appreciate ungrateful souls like Mr Moser biting the hands that help him over time. I also corresponded with Mike Stone a few weeks ago after he was being particularly inappropriately savaged about perceived deficiencies in his Freeware Malibu Meridian. He didn't deserve it.The message I want to convey is that there is nothing inherently wrong with Commercial development because commercial development makes Freeware developers lift their game, and that pushes Commercial developers harder to separate themselves from Freeware in quality. Who wins ? Everybody does !! Except here in the course of nonsensical discussions like this precipitated by an unfortunate error which provided an opportunity for payback in a venue where FSD often get less than a fair go. So now I see here today Commercial developers are all supposed to hang their heads in shame and hide in the dark because they are parasites. What a preposterous notion, and if I was a less temperate fella than I am I'd likely say what I really think and absolutely get myself banned .You know, the guys at FSD (and I suspect all at the pointy end of FS development, Commercially), do not make enough to survive on from this fringe market, and that's an absolute fact. I don't know many (indeed any) other commercial developers who do that. Probably we are just stupid ;) Unfortunately, to get to the pointy end of design like those fellas we support it takes a toll on your life (no, not a complaint) and if there was not just even a small sniff of a return for all the long hours many of these fellas would be gone under pressure from family or work. And as that happened, Freeware would have a less elevated standard to chase - and we would all be playing with decidedly less advanced virtual toys than you see today.All of us at FSD were approached by Publishers to produce shovelware, flying Corn Flake boxes, and we all declined but faced with reality and family pressures we eventually decided to do what we wanted to do for ourselves and if others happen to like it, like the extraordinarily advanced Cheyenne, then great - but if they don't we really don't care (other than to maintain the quality) because the returns are so low it's very easy to walk away anyway. But if uwanna see our Corn Flake boxes ... don't plan on seeing them here. They're the House rules. Fortunately, however, we have our own house.Ciao, Elrond !

[Francois_Dumas 10]

Oh well.... one can never please them all, no can one ?? :-outta Francois :-wave[table border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0][tr][td valign=bottom" align="center]"At home in the wild"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:avsim.com/alaska/alaska_051.htm|Don's Alaskan Bush Charters]"Beavers Lead the Way"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:www.avsim.com/vfr_center/mainpages/vfr_flights_main_page.htm]VFR Flight Center]"Looking Good Outside"[/td][/tr][tr][td valign=top" align="center]http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif[/td][td valign="top" align="left" colspan=2]http://www.fssupport.com/images/moose2.gif[/td][tr][/table]________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online![/bemail: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Francois_Dumas 10]

Good posts, both Steve's and Elrond's. Thanks guys :-) :-outta Francois :-wave[table border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0][tr][td valign=bottom" align="center]"At home in the wild"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:avsim.com/alaska/alaska_051.htm|Don's Alaskan Bush Charters]"Beavers Lead the Way"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:www.avsim.com/vfr_center/mainpages/vfr_flights_main_page.htm]VFR Flight Center]"Looking Good Outside"[/td][/tr][tr][td valign=top" align="center]http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif[/td][td valign="top" align="left" colspan=2]http://www.fssupport.com/images/moose2.gif[/td][tr][/table]________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online![/bemail: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Donmo 6]

LOL!!!!!They may be back. It's summer time! :)Don

[Donmo 6]

Steve, that's a crock. I did NOT contact EVERYONE at FSD. I contacted 2 people. I was NOT told to hold on at all. I also DID NOT make the above statements directed only to FSD. You sure like to throw your name around and stretch truths to suit you. You accused me in private e-mails of setting people up to contact you. That is so far from the truth it isn't funny. You also like to have one-way conversations with people. I tried to respond to your last e-mail and after 3 days of trying to send it, I gave up. Arguing with you is NOT what I want to do as a hobby. I posted generic post here meant for everyone as an opinion. Your seem to be direct attacks against me. That only shows your true character. Steve, your work is second to none. I will always give you credit for that and will always support the same. It's your attitude that needs to be modified. Why when my name shows up on a post about payware do you assume it against you? Are you THAT paranoid? If you want to continue this, I would suggest doing it by e-mail (even though I may not be able to get an e-mail back). I don't think it's right to argue on Toms forums. But the thing is, I don't have a problem with this. YOU do.Don

[Donmo 6]

See Steve, you used MY name in another post. I have NOT used FSD OR Steve Small OR his associates in ANY of my posts here. Why aren't you addressing any of the others who have the same mind set as I do here on an individual basis? You sir, have a problem. I would appreciate it if YOU didn't single me out of a muti-person thread. I didn't specify YOU or your group. THAT is a personal attack. Get a grip.Don