I disagree with the denial of Commercial Posts...

[Guest]

It was said here that most people don't buy payware. I am sorry, but I for one completely support payware products if the product is up to par. Some of the work that has come out lately has been spectacular. I am sorry if some of you folks can't afford to buy a $15 airplane or scenery package. Don't eat at McDonalds for lunch, and then you'd have the money to spend. NOT ALL COMMERCIAL companies are raking in the cash. Rob Young was a fine example. He stated that on their project for Fly they barely broke even. Some of these developers are pratically giving away their product and most of you people pretty much just ##### about it for having to pay a little cash.I still stand by my post about banning all commercial posts. This forum was supposed to be informative and helpful. I read here several times a day and see quite a bit of stupid posts, but the ones that catch my eye are posts that regard new and upcoming products either from other users, or a commercial company.Our simulator pretty much would be boring and tiresome if it weren't for all the nice little toys we've either paid for (or was free) and installed into our simulator.JohnnyKTUS

[Francois_Dumas 10]

You are. They are considered to be directly involved with a company's development and production. Again, this only holds through for commercial developers. :-outta Francois :-wave[table border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0][tr][td valign=bottom" align="center]"At home in the wild"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:avsim.com/alaska/alaska_051.htm|Don's Alaskan Bush Charters]"Beavers Lead the Way"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:www.avsim.com/vfr_center/mainpages/vfr_flights_main_page.htm]VFR Flight Center]"Looking Good Outside"[/td][/tr][tr][td valign=top" align="center]http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif[/td][td valign="top" align="left" colspan=2]http://www.fssupport.com/images/moose2.gif[/td][tr][/table]________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online![/bemail: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Guest Timbo]

I don't think Phil C's post deserved to get deleted, although it's on the front page now, he wasn't "advertising" for Bill Lyons. His site gets very little publicity and many people don't know about it. Phil was just shedding light on it.[TABLE BORDER=0][tr][td]

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[link:timsfsstudio.home.attbi.com]Click here to visit Tim's FS Studio!] Updated June 11th!

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[Guest]

Does this apply to the PMDG Forums and the like ?They make product announcements and relate news of upcoming products.This is not an anti PMDG post I just sense some double standards here.I know what you want to avoid but I think you need to be more relaxed about this.

[Francois_Dumas 10]

Yes, in hindsh=ight I agree (and told Phil so), but sometimes things just get too hectic and then little mishaps happen ;-)But be honest... the front page post beats a forum message now doesn't it ?? :-lol :-outta Francois :-wave________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online!email: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Francois_Dumas 10]

PMDG, PSS and such forums are Commercial Support Forums (that's what it says along the top ;-) ). We are discussing commercial usage of general public forums here.I am relaxed, I type this with my feet on the desk now..... :-outta Francois :-wave________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online!email: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Guest Jeff S KDTW]

However, Francois, sometimes new releases don't make it to the front page. I may be wrong about this, and maybe you have some way to check it, but I don't recall ever seeing the FSD Cheyenne announced on the front page. Again, being a beta tester, I was excited to see it get the attention it deserved and so I watched the front page for days, but I never saw it. It is possible that I missed it, but I was checking often.I wish you guys luck in figuring this one out. As I see it, I understand your reluctance in having this place turn into an advertising forum, but I'd also hate to see many of the small developer shops get the boot. :-)Take care,http://home.earthlink.net/~snyders2000/name.jpg

[Guest]

D'OHCan I make a suggestion then, make a new Forum for all (small) payware developers to make product announcements in.They can share the cost ?Everyone

[Guest]

People might take your comments a little better if you didn't attack AVSim in your original post, calling them restrictive and unthinking.As far as supporting Payware addons, it really has nothing to do with commercial advertizers in this forum taking advantage of Tom's good graces.There is plenty of space on AVSim's front page for news and reviews of commercial products without turning forums into spamfests. It is bad enough right now with the abuse levels of banners in sig files. You know, some people have to pay money for their bandwidth.AVSim derives money from advertizing, allowing some to advertize for free would result in that revenue stream drying up, resulting in no more AVSim.As far as you globally reaching statements that most people don't buy payware ...If a payware product does not sell well, I would state that the producers did not research their market properly in the first place.Just because you make item X does not mean that a market exists for item X.Rob's work for Fly II was well received in the tiny market that is Fly II, but when producing for a tiny market, the odds on recovering costs are rather slim to begin with, but I would suspect that they did it as a labour of love, not to get rich.For every quality addon in the commercial world there is at least 10 "get rich quick" folks trying to make a quick buck selling junk.As we do not have the ability to remotely get our money back from these folks, I would love to see no products mentioned until after they submitted themselves for review by AVSim. There have been a large number of threads lately about unhappy folks who have bought things ... It would serve this community far better to have a policy that bans commercial product talk UNLESS the commercial author is willing to step up to the plate and be rated by our hosts.I'm sorry that you feel you need to voice your opinion about folks who have other priorities to spend $15 US on, like pay for their childs university or perhaps feed themselves. This community is made up of folks from all over the world, and that $15 US that you flaunt around as McDonald's money is $23 in Canada, or $41 in Brazil or $733 in India ... Some people take a lot for granted ...Ray

[Francois_Dumas 10]

Yep it's one of the things we are discussing ;-)Thanks for helping the thought processes ! :-) :-outta Francois :-wave________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online!email: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Guest Tim13]

Payware "internet companies" have no place advertising in the forums period. If they release a good product, then there will be satisfied users who will post screen shots along with where they got the product.We already have enough banners and such to deal with, I really don't want to have to sift through more "infomercials" in the forums.The payware groups want to be treated like "real companies", then it's time for them to pony up the cash and advertise on Avsim. I'm sure that Tom could use the money from FSD and others for the exposure that they get here.Tim13

[michal 44]

Rob,It makes a lot of sense what you are proposing. For Avsim however it might be tough to work out reasonable rules so other developers wuldn't ask for same favors. As you said, FLY's market is miniscule comparing to MSFS and therefore could be declared a "special economic zone" giving commercial vendors some allowance for free advertising on FLY's forum. Michael J.

[Guest]

TimMany people enjoy seeing development screenshots, work in progress which they can comment on and even input ideas to.This gives the developer a chance to make changes and the forum member a way of being involved.I agree with you that once the product is released there is no place for it in a screenshot forum as that is "fait accomplit" and just pure advertising.Pre release shots should be ok even complete and finished aircraft but once for sale then it should be up to the forum members to put up screenshots of their new aquisition which happens now.My suggestion is for a commercial pre release screenshot forum where vendors can show work in progress and recieve feedback and comments from forum members.Whether Avsim want to make a small charge for posting in that forum or ask for voluntary donations from vendors who do well is up to them , but I think it is healthy and exciting for forum members to see whats new and to be involved in the eventual outcome even if the product is payware.Peter

[Guest]

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[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Geezzz.. I really get tired of typing that... :)Okay, I am at work and not able to fully address this at the moment. However, let me say two things:First I REALLY REALLY appreciate the maturity and thoughtfulness of the posts in this thread, the ideas put forward and the obvious balance of interests that most of your posts appear to take into consideration. That's community folk! And thank you!Now, we are feverishly kicking around ideas in the background, and I will be making a recommendation this evening to our board of directors which I think will go 99 percent of the distance to satisfying everyone's interest and address another niggling issue that we also are wrestling with at the same time. I hope to be making an announcement later this evening or tomorrow morning, and I think everyone, you the reader, commercial contributors, AVSIM advertisers, and our staff, will be comfortable with. Until then, hold your breath. :)