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Brian Doney

Position and Hold

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There are some turbo-props and jets that just taxi too fast with all engines at idle. The CRJ200 is one that comes to mind and in the POSKY forum the designers suggest that just like in the real world the engine not be brought up until close to the hold short line all of this checked out and systems set again by the PNF. It is more of a brake saver than a fuel saver and I imagine all systems can be run off the one engine fired up during taxi. In this case I guess assymetrical thrust at idle is not a problem.I do not know if any trijets follow this procedure.There are some other multies that have firing up engines during the take-off taxi stage for fuel and brake conservation and some have an engine shut down after exiting the runway.I have seen multi turbo props do this as well including twins as long as the surface conditions allow steering correction with assymetrical thrust. I'm sure that the off engine was feathered as well (on some it happens automaticly with no oil pressure) but then at taxi prop drag is probably not an issue. Seeing as I do not have two brains and four hands I do not follow this very well.Obviously you made it to landing on the flight you describe :)

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Guest mmcevilley

>My guess at this point is we'll use 4m-3m for immediate, and>anything greater for normal. Who knows. Two things for sure...>1, the betas will hold our feet to the fire at to whether it's>acceptable or not :-) Roger that! ;-)

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Depending on what we are flying, any crew assistance add-ons (if the model can handle crew assistance tasks), which determines the PF workload, how about making rolling and immediate take-offs an option to disable on the options page or better yet controller page since the workload will be flight/model dependent. It also accommodates those on a learning curve that may be slower to respond.

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Hi Brian,Having had time to reflect on your original post and my replies I accept that I didn't address your particular concerns so please accept my apologies.Thank you for your good grace in your reply. I'm sure all us testers have experienced the situation you described and during testing I know JD tweaked the distance value after complaints that we were sitting at the holding point for ages waiting for a take-off slot.Thinking out loud perhaps we can use the Aircraft Data options to determine the minimum acceptable distance for an inbound. For example, if you ticked 'heavy' it would take longer to line up so an inbound would have to be no closer than 5 miles for a standard lineup (4 miles could initiate a 'cleared for immediate departure' call) whereas if you choose any of the other three types the minimum distance could be reduced to 4 miles (3 for immediate).Just something for us to chew over. I'm sure you can appreciate everyone has different piloting skills and response times and we have to find something that is acceptable to everyone - not an easy task!Cheers,


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v5.3HF2, Intel i9-13900K, MSI 4090 GAMING X TRIO 24G, Crucial T700 4Tb M.2 SSD, Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero, 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR5 6000Mhz RAM, Win 11 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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Ray,Thanks for the reply. Please no apologies, I should have formed my original and subsequent posts better.I look forward to seeing what you guys are able to come up with.It isn't an issue that I see too often, only as of late, maybe in part because I've been spending alot of time going in and out of O'Hare.I think Ron may have hit on something as well. I've always switched over to tower, on a "Monitor tower" type handoff, as soon as instructed. This can result in getting a P&H very early, well before reaching the hold point, and may be contributory.Either way, it is something that I can easily work around for now, thank you for the discussion.


Regards,

Brian Doney

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Guest mmcevilley

>I've been spending alot of time going in and>out of O'Hare.>>This can result in getting a P&H very>early, well before reaching the hold point, and may be>contributory.You get *early* position and hold flying out of O'Hare!???? I've grabbed my spot in the t/o queue and had dinner before I was #1 for t/o @ O'Hare.Another topic: do you use the multiple runways AFCAD version of O'Hare? Really sweet to be on hold for 27L w/traffic landing 27L and 22L. Just like the real world.-michael

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Hi Brian,Mates again! :-beerchugDeparting from such a busy airport certainly taxes RC to the limit especially if you have Ai % around 100 as I do. How well RC works in this respect is always being monitored and reported to JD by us testers. Hopefully we can continue to tweak things so as to make it as real as possible.<>I'll keep an eye on this with my future flights. Unfortunately with the World Cup my flying time is being severely limited.Cheers,


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v5.3HF2, Intel i9-13900K, MSI 4090 GAMING X TRIO 24G, Crucial T700 4Tb M.2 SSD, Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero, 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR5 6000Mhz RAM, Win 11 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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>I'll keep an eye on this with my future flights. Unfortunately>with the World Cup my flying time is being severely limited.Really Ray!World Cup football is one thing but flight simming is something else! ;-) Iain

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LOL! I'll consider myself suitably chastised! :-smile12Cheers,


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v5.3HF2, Intel i9-13900K, MSI 4090 GAMING X TRIO 24G, Crucial T700 4Tb M.2 SSD, Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero, 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR5 6000Mhz RAM, Win 11 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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Brian,From my real world experience as an ATC, I can assure that tower controllers take into account a number of things in relation to the departing aircrafts ability, in their judgement, to be able to enter the runway, accelarate, become airborne and at least 6000 feet from the threshold before the arriving aircraft crosses the threshold.These factors include:aircraft sizespeed approching the holding pointwhether the aircraft is locally/nationally basedinternational operatorcommand of Englishand of course the prevailing weather conditions, poor weather more spaceFrom my experience, (and assuming the ATC authority allows the use of discretionary take-off and landing clearances as permitted by ICAO), with a medium or heavy jet approaching a three mile final, a contoller would probaly clear a B737/A320 type approaching the holding point for an immediate take-off. I wouldn't attempt it with a B747/A340 types, especially if they were staionary at the holding point. Another issue in tight situations is the effect of the jet blast of the departing aircraft on the arrival. Land light and medium weight category aircraft do not like getting too close behind deaprting B747/A340/B777 types. So in the case of the heavies, I would be looking at five miles. Always do the sums, if your TCAS indicates that a landing jet aircaft is three miles out, he is going to be over the threshold in around 90 seconds, which means that in that time you have to enter the runway, accelarate, and become airborne before he crosses the threshold for the standard to be met. It's tight but can be and is done.Neil

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Guest jboweruk

Hi,hope nobody minds a little take on this here. I agree with the person who said about waiting to be near the hold point before contacting tower, when I get monitor tower instructions I usually tune the radio to tower manually, then actually contact them at the hold point, it always seemed a bit unrealistic to get a taxi and hold instruction when I'm still only halfway along the taxiway.With that said, humans make mistakes, both ATC and Pilot's are human, and with so many pilot's up there and controllers under extreme pressure to keep safety and minimize delays then mistakes will happen. So I guess when RC 'cocks up' as it were I look at it that it just seems that little more human.Don't flame me for this it's just my opinion for what it's worth (or not according to your POV).Whatever way we look at it, RC4 has brought my sim world to life in a way that the default ATC never could. I've tried one other ATC add-on that used voice control, but that could not cope with AI traffic so was eventually dropped, and for a long looooong time I pondered over RC4, (what made that worse was that it was said it wouldn't work with FSHotseat). Eventually I took the plunge, I still run FSHS and don't care one jot what ATC calls Joe Bloggs' 747 on final. As long as he/she gives me clear and concise instructions. Sorry if I hijacked the thread with that but thanks guys for this. Rates up there among my best buys for FS.

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Guest wesl

I think the one thing to remember, at busy airports, landing aircraft can exit the runway in less than 45 seconds with the high speed turn offs. That very seldom happens in FS9. That is why 3 miles can work. In FS, probably closer to 6 is what will work all the time, unless the AI taxi speeds are adjusted for 35 knts.Wes

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Go England!! Anyway, Ghana just beat the Czech Republic, I like to root for the underdogs. Ecquador is another favourite, excellent play this year.Ian.

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Well Ian, I see you're from t'other side of the pond so good luck tonight against Italy! Ghana were awesome and with a little more self-discipline could have hammered the Czech's even with the outstanding Petr Cech in goal.Go USA!! :-wave


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v5.3HF2, Intel i9-13900K, MSI 4090 GAMING X TRIO 24G, Crucial T700 4Tb M.2 SSD, Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero, 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR5 6000Mhz RAM, Win 11 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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Guest cirurgiao

NeilIt's very interesting the way one learns about something that began as a "game" and has gone up to become an as "real" simulator as possible..Very nice tips about t/o with aircraft in finalEduardo

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