Need ideas for a work around

[iainsmith 9]

I sometimes fly from Southampton Int'l here in the UK which has a single runway 02/20.The lack of ground control is causing a problem when 20 is the active end as the hold point for this is almost halfway along the runway so a long backtrack is required.On three occasions I've been second or third in line for take off but unfortunately RC does not see the backtracking required. So the AI in front of me is cleared to t/off and as he is taxiing along the runway to turn and t/off having been given clearance I'm told to "line up and wait". But I can't without going headlong into the previous AI. So I wait until he has taken off and then I do my backtracking. As I'm turning into position at the end of the runway another AI has been told to line up and wait and is coming towards me along the runway!Short of turning traffic to zero (which I don't want to do) I can't think how to get round this at busy periods. Any ideas?One way, I suppose would be to enter the active and backtrack to the end and stop in the turning area before talking to the tower but this is not realistic.Iain

[Ray Proudfoot 8,927]

Hi Iain,Tricky problem! Obviously real-world controllers can use their eyes to maintain order but a computer program needs a little help.Do you always need full length for your take-off? If not then line up after entering 20 and take-off when cleared.Assuming you have already thought of that and dismissed it as unworkable due to insufficent runway length then an alternative would be to create an additional taxiway using AFCAD so that backtracking wasn't required. Not brilliant I know but our options are very limited.:-eek I'll try a flight from Southampton up to Manchester in the next few days and set the wind from the south and see how it works out in my PMDG737-700. Are you using the default scenery or a 3rd party addon?On your last point, once Tower has cleared you to line-up and hold you won't be given take-off clearance until you're aligned with the runway heading. Inbounds would go-around once they detected an aircraft on the runway and RC should lock other Ai aircraft from entering the runway until you've taken off so that may work even though it's unrealistic as you state.Things may become clearer once I've had a flight. I just hope I have enough Ai movements to replicate the problem. What's the best time of day to try this? I use Ultimate Traffic with no GA aircraft.Cheers,

[John Burgess 0]

Hi Iain,This shouldn't be happening! If RC detects an aircraft on the runway you shouldn't be cleared to line up. Similarly if you are on the runway the other ai should not be cleared onto the runway even when backtracking is concerned. At least that's how it worked during testing :-roll It sounds more like a runway database issue. Are you using an addon scenery for Southampton?I'm afraid I'm moving house at the moment so it'll be tomorrow probably before I can be back in touch.All the best,John

[Ray Proudfoot 8,927]

Hi Iain,I took the opportunity to fly out of Southampton this morning on 20 to check what is happening.As you say, the entry point to 02/20 is half-way along a 5700ft runway so it's not possible to depart from that entry point which means backtracking.But as John B say's no other Ai aircraft should enter the active whilst you are backtracking to the 20 hold. Unfortunately there was no other traffic to see this happen but I know RC will freeze any Ai traffic until you're airborne.So you should continue doing what you do now. That is, once cleared by Tower to 'line up and hold' you should acknowledge that instruction and wait until any departing aircraft have passed your entry point. Then enter and backtrack to the turning circle and line up on the runway heading at which point you will be given your take-off clearance.If you do experience another aircraft entering the active whilst you're backtracking then JD really needs to see a log. So before any flights out of Southampton switch on Debug, save the log to a named file and if the problem arises zip up the log and send it to JD.Another airport with backtracking is LOWI (Innsbruck). I've flown out of there several times without incident.

[iainsmith 9]

>Hi Iain,>Do you always need full length for your take-off? If not then>line up after entering 20 and take-off when cleared.Even with a Dash 8 I need more than this would give. Your 737-700 will need the full length>I'll try a flight from Southampton up to Manchester in the>next few days and set the wind from the south and see how it>works out in my PMDG737-700. Are you using the default scenery>or a 3rd party addon?I use the default scenery.>>Things may become clearer once I've had a flight. I just hope>I have enough Ai movements to replicate the problem. What's>the best time of day to try this? I use Ultimate Traffic with>no GA aircraft.Early morning abou 7 to 7-30 should be busy. I have Ultimate Traffic and Project AI and I've added schedules for Flybe, the biggest operator there, so mine might be busier than yours although not unrealistically so.Thanks for your response Ray, I'll be interested in what you find. I tried my suggested method last night and it worked as far as RC was concerned but it wasn't a busy time so it didn't prove anything!CheersIain

[iainsmith 9]

Thanks for your further response Ray. I'll do what you suggest and if/when it happens again I'll send JD the log.CheersIain.

[iainsmith 9]

>Hi Iain,>>This shouldn't be happening! If RC detects an aircraft on the>runway you shouldn't be cleared to line up. Similarly if you>are on the runway the other ai should not be cleared onto the>runway even when backtracking is concerned. At least that's>how it worked during testing :-roll >>It sounds more like a runway database issue. Are you using an>addon scenery for Southampton?>>I'm afraid I'm moving house at the moment so it'll be tomorrow>probably before I can be back in touch.Thanks for the reply John. As you'll see from my replies to Ray, I use the default scenery. I'm going to do as Ray suggests and if necessary send the log to JD.CheersIain

[John Burgess 0]

Hi Iain,I just had a thought. I think you mentioned that the problem is occuring when a plane (you or the ai) is making it's turn at the end of the runway. It could be that as you or the ai do this you actually move off the runway briefly to complete the turn. I'm wondering if, at that point, RC is spotting you or the ai are no longer on the runway and thinks it is okay to get the next plane rolling.All the best,John

[Ray Proudfoot 8,927]

Hi Ian,I managed to find a departure from EGHI so I could check your problem. Jersey 1811 departs at 0818GMT so I started a few minutes ahead of him and was at the 20 hold with him right behind me.I was cleared to line up and wait so I backtracked to the hold and lined up. Jersy 1811 was still at the hold. I departed with him still at the hold. Everything seems fine.However, I think John may be onto something because if you watch the Ai turn at the end of 20 they do venture onto the grass rather than use the turning circle. That may be the reason you're cleared onto the runway with another aircraft still there.Use AFCAD to check the taxi lines at the end of 20 and I think you'll find they need adjusting. In all othe respects RC4 is working as intended.Hope that helps.

[iainsmith 9]

>Use AFCAD to check the taxi lines at the end of 20 and I think>you'll find they need adjusting. In all othe respects RC4 is>working as intended.>>Hope that helps.Thanks Ray - I think you and John have hit on it. I've remembered that although I haven't changed the airport scenery I have installed a different AFCAD to give the correct number and layout of gates. So I'll check the taxi lines as you suggest. Great support as usual!Iain

[Ray Proudfoot 8,927]

Hi Iain,I had a look at the AFCAD I am using supplied by UT and there are no taxiway lines in the turning circle at the 20 hold so Ai aircraft will do their own thing and in this case are taxiing onto the grass.As you're using the default scenery and UT you might want to try the attached AFCAD which includes taxiway lines preventing aircraft getting their wheels green ;-)Thanks for the nice words :-waveCheers,

[iainsmith 9]

>As you're using the default scenery and UT you might want to>try the attached AFCAD which includes taxiway lines preventing>aircraft getting their wheels green ;-)Thanks Ray, I'll give that a try!CheersIain

[jd 57]

it's always the afcad file, isn't it :-(jd

[Guest jboweruk]

Dear old Afcad files. :( See my post about So'n'So Fisdo....