KLAX-KLAX Not Realistic

[downscc 1,327]

This route is probably an unfair test of RC, since you do not claim to support DP & STAR procedures; however, it is an example of why you should.The common route is LOOP4.DAG.KEPC1 (LAXX5 sometimes instead of LOOP4). I should have turned off the DP option but forgot and had to find my way to the first fix (LAX VOR after a 180 from the departure). Next time, I'll remember. The small disappointment is center starting me down before I even get to DAG (over 120nm from LAS, and I'm only at FL290); where as real world traffic is kept high until past DAG and then cross MISEN at 24000. The big disappointment is approach giving me a vector 34nm out when KEPC1 is a perfectly good RNAV STAR that routes you around mountains, over departures and all the way to an IAF.The real traffic flys the RNAV routes into and out of LAS just as shown on the charts. Another location where vectors are less and less frequent is KDFW. Of course, many other RNAV procedures are being added every cycle with RNP 2.0 1.0 or 0.3 criteria for the primary purpose of increasing capacity and reducing pilot/controller workload.I sincerely hope that RC migrates towards accomodating the growing number of RNAV STAR procedures. It will add significant fidelity to the simulation experience.Thanks very much.

[ronzie 21]

I see you are up and running :)If you wish to fly a STAR via your FMC just request an IAP approach once approach recommends a runway. You will be given an altitude merge for the ILS but then left alone until you are on final.I have some STARS that terminate 30 to 40 nm out with expectations of radar vectors which RC does. If your FS9 flightplan includes the STAR waypoints it will follow the STAR until about that 40 nm out when approach contacts you and you can make your choice.BTW I went to flightaware.com resources to look at the STAR and they do not list (unless I missed it) KEPC1 STAR for KLAX. Were you doing pattern work with the same departure and destination?

[Brian Doney 127]

Should read KLAX-KLAS.

[jd 57]

i'm glad you clarified that. KLAX-KLAX didn't look realistic at all :-)jd

[downscc 1,327]

Thanks, guys (sheepishly). KLAX-KLAS and it is KEPEC1. I was trying to get feedback and watch 'So you think you can dance' at the same time.And thanks for the tipe on the use of IAP, that will work very smoothly with the RNAV routes.

[jd 57]

yep, that is why we did the iap approach, to allow for all the possible needs you might have.jd

[ronzie 21]

FYI:Those that visit the PMDG forums will find Dan contributes many SID/STAR routes to the database for the PMDG FMC systems and is an experienced PMDG regional jet flyer. Another name to look for is Terry Yingling (spelling) who has these text files at www.planepath.com.Thanks, Dan.

[downscc 1,327]

Thanks, Ronzi.. I'm afraid I'm not making a good first impression here. I've tried the KLAX-KLAS trip again but had to abort FS during departure, which calls for heading 250 expect vectors LAX VOR, thence route as shown on LOOP4 chart (vectors look like a 180 loop, ergo the name); I was still expecting RC4 to do something but it is waiting for me to cross the first fix, but because the first fix is within 30 nm it's not going to give me vectors. Nasty circle. I have flown this many times before with ATC just an imagination, hand fly out far enough to give myself room to reverse course and get over the LAX VOR when I'm above 10000. Now I guess I need to do the same thing with RC4, but it's adding complexity without utility.When you quit FS9 before stopping RC4, is it normal for it to lockup and not exit? I had to use the task manager to shut it down. That's off subject.If you have flown out of LAX via either LOOP4 or LAXX5, how do you do it?

[ronzie 21]

I have not done it but LAXX5 shows SLI VOR 40 nm out. If you use that or a similar VOR (they all look more than 30 nm out) - the LAXX5 is VOR based, you should get vectors to the first VOR. You have also got got OCEANSIDE and CATALINA. I think you will get vectors to those from either end of the runways on the southern hemisphere side and then get set up for headings to the next waypoint.LOOP4 looks more RNAV based so you would fly it as filed without expecting vectors through the LAX VOR unlike the real world. If you want to fly it turn on NOTAMS so you can deviate without nagging. (It is shown as a loose route in the immediate area of the airport.) You are going to have to live without vectors on that one despite what it says. The problem with loop4 is once beyond 20nm the next waypoints are really far out.If you want to use your FMC then throw in the proper DEP and edit the legs page as necessary being sure that the VOR you picked is in the route. Follow RCs vectors but use MCP heading. Also be aware of the RC procedure to skip waypoints if necessary so you do not miss a credit.

[downscc 1,327]

Thanks. LOOP4 is VOR-based, and the traffic is vectored to the first fix, which is LAX VOR on the airport. KSJC has DPs along the same lines and although rare I'm sure there's others. I flew the route again last night and vectored myself around the loop and the departure went as expected... but the arrival at KLAS still leaves much to be desired. I selected NOTAM and IAP to fly the KEPEC1 RNAV STAR unencombered with ATC, but am still trying to figure out how to get the most fidelity out of RC4.

[ronzie 21]

I was just saying LAXX5 was the better choice for an RC vectored departure with current limitations.For arrival a non-RNAV approach leaves room for vectoring such as cresso 3 it should break at CRESSO. If you want it tight with vectoring KEPEC1 will still get you there since you will get a break for a downwind pattern. Ask for runway 25L for instance that should give you a nearside approach.

[downscc 1,327]

Great news for all! The cycle 0608 are up at FAA NACO and there are two brand new RNAV DPs out of KLAX. The new OSHNN ONE RNAV DP is a perfect replacement for the old LOOP4 with a transition to DAG. The other new one is KARVR ONE RNAV DP with a transition to IPL to replace LAXX5. We'll start seeing these soon on flightaware.

[ronzie 21]

Looks like all waypoint routed RNAV with no vectoring needed. Simplifies that!

[markadeane 272]

Co-incidentally I've been talking with a 744 crew member who says that the Loop4 departure is one of the most challenging when the temperature gets high enough. He said to try it in the PMDG 744 with a decent load at temperature of about 28 degrees celcius for a real test. Making plans to try it tonight, but on paper I can see how it will be tricky!