FlyBaby

7 hours ago, GCBraun said:

But it is a game.....!!!

Yep...it is a game that is better than any other flight sim to date.

5 hours ago, beep747 said:

Early alpha still. 

If "this" is just the Alpha, just imagine what the Beta will be like....still better than any other sim to date

1 hour ago, penta_a said:

why on earth when ever there is an exciting topic about a new developers with a great product (virtually with hard supporting evidence) coming to MSFS like Fenix in this case, the subject turns to discuss other sims chances of existence and the quality of 3rd party products running on them?

it is running like fire in bushes on all related threads in this forum.

why can't we just enjoy the moment that we have and give support to the new developers?

I think folk "are" enjoying the moment...and realizing that the more Devs that come to MSFS (particularly high fidelity aircraft), the better chances MSFS has of being around for the next 10 years.

We have had 2 failed launches over the last decade (FSW and Flight....both being associated with Microsoft), so many people want MSFS to "dominate" and "bury" the competition...not to mention that some folk remember just how stagnant development was when LR and LM were at the helm. Out with the old...In with the new...

3 hours ago, honanhal said:

I wouldn’t say I’m celebratory, but I do recognize that for the past 10 years or so we had a pretty distorted (you could also say “unhealthy”) market situation in civil flight simulation. Producers in the market, both those who sold the sims and those who sold the addons, became what’s known in the biz as “fat and happy.” I’m not even saying they were making a lot of profit — indeed, with a small and perhaps shrinking market they may not have been — but they were comfortable and everything mostly stagnated. At the same time, prices crept steadily upward, and they weren’t exactly starting low, either. The PMDG 747 released in 2008 (if I recall correctly) cost about a third of the one they released a few years ago.

 

Bingo....

LM and LR were fine with stale development and letting 3PD fill in the gaps (with addons that mainly killed performance). Leaving users with bloated Frankenstein sims just to have an immersive experience.

P3D had an identity crisis (who is it for) and LR simply did not identify (no user engagement) with its users.

I don't feel sorry for the competition, they sat back for years doing much of nothing, even the flight sim conventions were boring....having the Devs come with nothing much to say.

The writing has been on the wall ever since the initial MSFS teaser vid shown the same weekend as a flight sim convention, and stealing all of the attention from that point forward.

48 minutes ago, RobJC said:

Not when there will be a zillion potential xbox customers buying add-ons. Sorry, but check and mate.

I think that the XBOX release is a real "game" changer for the flight "sim" arena.

The revenue potential for both Devs and Microsoft is a win win for them and us. We have a dedicated Dev with the funds to keep pushing the boundaries.

I often think back to the demise of FSW (along with their enthusiasm and consumer engagement)....how I thought flight simming was practically dead because XP and P3D had sluggish development with nothing new / exciting to offer.

And now here we are...with new updates / additions coming every "month" from Asobo, not to mention the tons of freeware / payware released every week.

I will debate with XP fans about which is better, but even where MSFS is behind...they are that much further ahead with the constant / frequent engagement , updates, and future development.

Just now, mSparks said:

-> XP haters, trolls, and fan__s

Are you saying you are one of those three? if so which, just so I know how you self identify.

I am a fan of the competing sim...glad we cleared that up...

6 minutes ago, mSparks said:

with developers obviously, not users. (and you are confusing me with someone else - let me know if its Janov so I can laugh really really hard)

 

No...it was you...as usual...throwing anything out there to save face. You contended that the blog was engagement with "users".

But as usual, you will flip the script if it keeps you from admitting that you are wrong. For example...when Janov called you out for claiming that MSFS would be a subscription based model...you then pulled the general subscription that Microsoft has for its gaming platform that includes MSFS as a way to argue that you were right. Its typical msparks...and everyone seems to know it...but you.

49 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

In my opinion Meyer has been eulogised, by the Org and others, to the point where he can no longer see the wood for the trees. He should sell LR.

LOL...wow...that's a take I was not expecting. Truly I think that LR should just focus on the mobile platform. I think it sucks more than the desktop app, but he seems to be doing well against the competition in that space...not so much on the PC, where he really does not have the resources to advance the sim at the pace of the competition...

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

Yes, emoji over you suggestion that a failed product was to be taken as an example. 🤣

Others took that route (engagement) and don't have their users guessing about what's coming the next month. Thanks for the attention...and the continued attempts to distract from what you did...

Contradictions....

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

VS

The org was the engagement.

Austin/LR can't take the blame for the org being toxic for XP engagement - but they can repair it, by:

Not so....and in an earlier thread you claimed that the x plane developer blog was the engagement...how you constantly rewrite the script amazes me.

Asobo, DCS, and DTG have set up their own forums / feedback channels / livestrems / sites to interact with their users....plain and simple.

Relying on the ORG alone does not cut it. Stop blaming the ORG for how Austin chose to ignore the community... 

1 hour ago, jarmstro said:

Well if I were Meyer and had seen the phrase 'unnecessary eye candy' posted for the millionth time on the Org I would think that eye candy was, well, umm.., unnecessary? 

His past vids show that he has marched to beat of his own drum regardless of feedback...maybe things will change.

However, the ORG can't be the blame for issues with XP when the Dev has been at this for over 26 years.

54 minutes ago, Murmur said:

Exactly, and I was making fun of you taking the course of action of a failed product as an example, while calling another successful product a failure.

 

Not so..."engagement" (that course of action) has been taken now by Asobo, DTG trains, and DCS...all popular and successful sims.

I know trying to clean up "your" statement is taxing...just admit that you were taking a shot...gloating...over FSW's demise, or continue this charade.

54 minutes ago, Murmur said:

Message being, it takes much more than your suggestion of community engagement for a product to be successful.

It does take more...like sim features...but again, that wasn't the message you were trying to send. It was one sentence gloating over the FSW's demise. But I like how you are going out of your way to change the narrative...over and over again.

54 minutes ago, Murmur said:

EDIT: Oh, I might remember wrong, but when FSW was declared dead, I didnt' post anything joyous about it. On the contrary, there were several people gloating over it (not surprisingly, as far as I remember, many of them the same who today are MFS fans wishing for the demise of the competition).

Irrelevant...

I am not talking about what you did then, I am talking about the gloating you did in this thread...emoji and all. Placing the focus on others do nothing to distract from what you did in this thread...

EDIT: So much for ignoring me...seems like I have not only your attention...but your dedication to covering your tracks over one "gloating" statement. Carry on...

12 hours ago, jarmstro said:

With the release of MSFS it was instantly clear that XP was out of date in terms of performance and aesthetics. If sties like the Org had been less censorious in stamping out any criticism and statements of the obvious the penny might have dropped with Meyer a lot sooner. How is he to know if all he hears is endless praise and sees nothing but worshipful sycophantic head nodding?

What was he meant to think when his followers were for so long telling him that they had no interest in 'eye candy'? All that mattered was the flight model. Even now you can read people posting that they prefer the way default XP looks. 

 

Not so...

Austin has been aware of the criticism about XP's visuals. In a video years ago he joked about the XP looking like a "giant green" carpet. He would have also had to have known that the ocean looked like a blue quilted blanket.

In his vid review of X-Enviro, he stated that XP clouds are not that great (again joking about it)). Interestingly enough...he reviewed XE as if he did not know much about it...whereas the XE Dev had been trying to work with LR for a while to overcome some limitations (no 3PD Dev engagement).

If you look at enough older vids / interviews, you will see that Austin basically ignored the requests of the community...

All of the flight sim Devs were fine with stale development and letting the 3PD fill in the gaps...leaving users with bogged down Frankenstein Sims just to get a decent visual flight experience...

MSFS changed all of that...built a solid foundation...engaged with 3P Devs...built the store...interacts with the community...responds almost immediately to their concerns etc. XP12 has to be about more than just features, it is the attitude and commitment of the Dev that is making the difference these days.

IMO, Austin has always taken an arrogant (he knows best) posture towards the community. Whereas Asobo is reaching out, even asking for help from the community with building a sim for the community to enjoy. Huge difference...HUGE DIFFERENCE....

4 hours ago, Murmur said:

I'm not gloating over the failure of FSW (also, I think and hope Dovetail Games are doing fine with their jobs thanks to their other products), in the same way that I'm not gloating over P3D rapidly losing users (at least that's what I read around). Infact I wished P3D would keep going, because I wouldn't want a monopoly in the flight sim market.

The "Another nail on the coffin..." posts have only been written by MSFS fans in the last year or so.

Rather, I'm laughing at you suggesting a failed product as an example to follow, and calling a successful product a failure instead. Too funny.

Nope..."I" was suggesting that LR should have followed FSW's "engagement" with the community back then, which they are obviously doing now...following MSFS.

You were making fun of FSW's failure despite that effort (Yeah, "it" worked great for them!), but I appreciate the long winded effort to redeem yourself. It amazes me how you guys try to rewrite history in the same thread. Carry On...

12 hours ago, mSparks said:

Yes no maybe kinda....

 

No...the performance did not much improve much. Long explanations do not change that reality...

3 hours ago, scotchegg said:

You wave away Austin’s passion and resources at your peril. I’m sure XP12 will continue the tradition, albeit from its more comfortable position of underdog.

Nope...LR has neglected consumers at their peril....

If that tradition is a problematic release with sluggish updates (especially with no roadmap showing a dedication to frequent development)...many folk won't even bother investing in it.

Consumers are now used to a higher level of engagement....

2 hours ago, Murmur said:

Yeah, it worked great for them! 🤣

Wow...is this coming from the guy who once told me that I was wrong for gloating over Devs losing their jobs???

And the same guy in another thread who claims to ignore "people coming in here" criticizing XP???

The contradictions from the XP gatekeepers are endless.  Carry On...

2 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

It may appear that way due to the timing but it only happened because they have completed the Vulkan conversion. Now with the free time, what feature should they do first. It makes sense to ask the community which is not a Microsoft exclusive invention. Any smart business would have done that if they want to show support for their users over the time the users stuck with them during the conversion.

Not so...Austin has amped up his engagement because of MSFS...following their lead. It started with that uncomfortable video of his "team" sitting around a couch trying to reassure everyone..

2 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

Again: for the years you say he has neglected: during Vulkan conversion, he manage still maintaining an active use sim after adding VR support, particle systems, HDR lighting, PBR material, an experimental mode for aircraft models, a new UI, Fmod sounds and a revamps autogen for support for buildings heights.

Nope...Austin dragged his feet for years not addressing the poor performance (even in XP10). He still doesn't have clouds that go to the horizon, yet combat sims do. Not real substantial development in XP for years.

And Vulkan itself is not a great leap in performance IMO.

2 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

Was MSFS being use when they where in hiding during their development? They had all the time to themselves without having to deal with the users.

Irrelevant...

2 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

As far as the teaser video, they are already at 100,000 in a months’ time. At that rate they can easily reach a million.

They will hit a million if you combine all of the views from all of their future teaser vids. Is Austin still in the comment section mudslinging and being sarcastic to folk criticizing his sim? That was even more pathetic than the low view count....

Just now, BobFS88 said:

It's also no loss to X-plane users. Ask anyone  who flies the Zido mod and they would tell you they could care less.

Yes it was...just search the threads of upset users  on this and other forum patforms...

35 minutes ago, BobFS88 said:

 

And since that conference FSW announce that they were delaying their release at the end of that same year only going into the new year that it was game over for them.

 

Actually, FSW had a great vision, and actively "engaged" with the community. LR could have learned from that...

37 minutes ago, BobFS88 said:

If things are going south for X-plane because Austin won’t following Microsoft lead in promoting an market place type store (which he never had to do). Then I can’t see how his market is hold up well enough to kept develop churning out new releases in the face of all the attention the MSFS get these days.

It is just the opposite, Austin is now looking to follow MSFS' lead...he is engaging more (has his "whittle" voting system for features etc). He is now looking at the competition and changing his arrogant ways to add better visuals to his sim.

Yep....he got a taste of the "unpredictable world" nonsense he was talking about...

42 minutes ago, BobFS88 said:

Doesn’t seem to me that a marketing strategy has anything to do with his survival. He just makes the sim work which is all you can ask for.

Sure it does, Austin has just neglected it for all of these years. I mean, I don't think you will ever find the top guys at Asobo / MSFS lashing back at commenters in their teaser vids. 

But then again, when your teaser vid gets 6M+ views and thousands of comments...you already know you did something right.

23 minutes ago, Murmur said:

What? A failure? XP11 (which was released late 2016 on X-Plane.com, and in 2017 on Steam) steadily increased its users reaching 15 TIMES (+1400% !) compared to its predecessor, in terms of average Steam users (and ignoring the lockdown surge). How the heck is that a failure?

Boy, is this discussion amusing.

Those numbers are pathetic when (according to @mSparks ) XP had less peak users than a decade old sim...

21 hours ago, mSparks said:

Peak Steam users

FSX April 2020: 5,971

XP11 April 2020: 4,173

 

Also, you know your platform is failing when well respected high fidelity DEVs like PMDG abandons you...Again, I will let @mSparks xplane it to you...

Now that is amusing...

On 7/11/2021 at 3:45 PM, mSparks said:

PMDG grew large on the back of the wealthy P3D userbase and large FSX userbase.

They learnt pretty quickly from the XP DC6 that XP didn't have a userbase large enough to pay their salaries. Probably more to that story, but for all else that is all that will have made the difference.

47 minutes ago, mSparks said:

2017 XP didnt really need to go much further

Yep, that looks like Austin's mindset...

"Should" of been planning ahead since the days of selling to "consumers" on Amazon..."Would" of had his own store, robust forum etc...."Could" of had the present day impact on the market as his competitors...

But "you" want to blame the ORG...

1 hour ago, Janov said:

This is really a matter of perspective. A lot of people still choose X-Plane over the competition and maybe see no need to place any blame at all and (we have been at this point of the discussion before but it doesnt seem to sink in) commercial success is not the ultimate goal for everyone in their life´s endevours.

Not so..

Why is Austin now listening to consumers, using a voting system??? Why is Austin in the comment section of his low viewed teaser vid "trying" to engage with consumers??? Why is Austin mudslinging against a competitor, when he earlier claimed that he does not even look at the competition...

So it looks like a perspective can change...Austin's certainly has...he is not the same arrogant Dev seen in this 2017 (around the 8:19 mark)....Looks like something seemed to sink into him...the realization of failure.

It was this video that let me know that XP was not going much further...2021 and it hasn't.

30 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Nah - He delegated it to X-plane.org

Nah...he sold it as a consumer product with other retailers like amazon with reviews dating back to 2010...he then ignored those consumers..

https://www.amazon.com/X-Plane-v-9-0-PC/dp/B000LQ4CXY

Facts...

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

Not really imho. Coulda Woulda Shoulda.

"years ago" was X-Plane 9

https://www.x-plane.com/product/x-plane-9/

pretty solid sim, nothing really resembling 3PD support

Ben Supnik wrote the xlua SDK - that and 3D cockpits became a staple of Xplane around 2013 in X-Plane 10

https://developer.x-plane.com/2013/03/three-levels-of-lua/

 

Regardless, Austin has been at this for 26+ years...he "could" have been at the forefront of the freeware / payware outlets going into his sim.

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

Up till this point XP is really in a tiny niche and everyone who finds it is 1 on 1 with Austin, and the primary focus is really commercial use - starting to push into the consumer market with the Steam store listing in 2014

Not so...it was sold on Amazon years before that...lets not rewrite history in an effort to downplay the sluggish development over the past decade....

He sold it as a consumer product, and then ignored those consumers for years...

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

In short, they still don't have X-Plane really in a position where they could do it now. But there isn't much left to get there.

In short...there is no one to blame for where XP is at today ...other than Austin himself. He did not really push the sim forward and it shows. The ORG had nothing to do with that...

16 minutes ago, mSparks said:

But now its time for LR to step up and replace the org store with an in game market place.

They should have done this "years" ago...

Again, Austin did not look to grow the sim and left too many things in others hand because all he (and apparently others) thought that mattered was a flight model where the plane soars through the skies with circle of clouds that do not extend to the horizon, and landing at desolate airports.

Luckily, the community stepped up and made the majority of 3D airports in XP. And without them, and the contributors at the ORG...the ORG itself, XP would have died off years ago.

And still, Austin ignored the very users who were "doing" much of the "outside" work to keep XP alive.