akita

@Janov I think both of us can't talk too much. All I can say that you totally missed my point and it was not about hyping myself, others or unrealistic expectations.

I think, frankly, that you should stop lowering expectations for others with regards of the visuals of Xplane 12. LR can't push the amount of scenery data in the default global scenery (servers, streaming) but their new engine is by no means less capable for anyone who is involved in art and scenery creation. In fact it is much more capable in others areas, and other very few "unchanged" areas are definitely on the todo list, lastly other plans are as well way beyond what MSFS can (ever) reach with their current inflexible scenery system and will pretty much leave it to dust. Will Xplane default global scenery surpass MSFS? probably not. What about pretty much everything else? yes. Is Xplane 12 scenery engine and SDK less capable? NO, really no. the opposite, and it will be more true post 12.00. Besides, for MSFS you have to buy regional addons for seasons, correctly sized trees, correct airport signs etc. This means that for a practical user you will take your wallet out in MSFS as well. In this case, I prefer the one that has the most open SDK for 3rd parties. *Of course all above is an opinion, but somewhat a sophisticated one...

Agreed. For me it is most noticed in go arounds, you really have to put some big amount of force to prevent the nose from sky rocketing. This and smooth VR.

Just watching the detail and hats off. It is obvious that there is so much passion & talent that has put into this and this one is easily & far the most impressing product that I have seen in home flight simulation. Wow!

Art assets quality, MSFS photogrammetry and orthos won't pass a GTA 2 quality control, let alone a 202X release of rockstar. So you won't get mad, the same goes for Xplane and P3D, in fact flight simulation will ALWAYS lag behind for a few years compared to AAA shooters, MSFS already is. AAA titles are already: You keep mentioning autogen as bad, it's the best approach to come even close to this kind of detail above. Meanwhile photogrammetry can't render a good looking trash bin, let alone with decent shading.

Most of this generation actually does not have a PC or even XBOX/PS5. So from an "attracting" future customers point of view both mobile & XBOX are the way to keep the niche hobby (flight simulation) on a growing stage.

"The total" MSFS, like, both XBOX + PC is 2M? I was under the impression PC only hit 2M honestly.

NO! You compared MSFS & FSX (different products and teams!) to XP11.41 & XP11.50 (same exact product!), hence I asked you about "blackberry". What Navigraph did does NOT change the fact that it is still the same product that you paid ONCE for! Where did I say you can sum %? Honestly, just leaving it here, good luck to the others.

Why are you mentioning me though? did I say that? quote please? XP11.41 & XP11.50 is the same product, that's what I said. Did not even talk about the Navigraph data and whether you can sum them up or not. I think you mixed it up with the other math fiasco you had before about MSFS2XP vice versa. For some reason you have developed a habit to quote/mention me while I didn't even call for/talked to you, today when I actually mentioned you for once you ignore and then come up with something I have nothing to do with? dude like, leave me alone and move on, kinda creepy.

If you had a software upgrade for blackberry does this mean you bought a new phone?

The opposite, re-read the discussion again and who I quoted at first. Here we agree, but Xplane12 is under NDA as well as the steamDeck development. What is for sure that mobile is a portal for PC as well and other platforms, LR and other 3rd party's confirmed this with their own investment in that platform, so knowing what those numbers are can shed some more light for what kind of a platform one is developing for and how can one lure them towards you. Just like some bought MSFS then bought Xplane and their addons and vice versa, while those 5M+ does not mean much for now, they can mean a lot in the future. This is my whole take here, i'm not trying to say Xplane has a bigger market, obviously not.

60% of the 24200 said no=40% said yes (the indicated at the title of the graph) 4.4% said to Xplane, hence 4.4% of 24200 is? Very easy.

Sharing about 70-80% of the code according to LR. time vs money is the equation, not your experience as a user.

Still hiding behind other's quotes with nothing to add to the discussion, The "If" is merely for the example, you are not the only developer, with all my respect, I can see the yellow/orange marks. For others this data is meaningful, those mobile users in the future might find Xplane on steamDeck/PC (and 3rd party are already on the steam store) resulting in a big new market. Watching data to confirm what one already know is not the point, giving other interesting data that will help developers and others thinking of how they can grow the business and how I can somehow get them IS my point. This does not mean one should rush creating more stuff/investing more for Xplane, but those numbers should be known and definitely not excluded because an MSFS user wants to set a narrative.

We do agree, but not on this: You already know what you already have. But if I am developer, I WANT to know that Xplane has HUGE market that is closed to me that might open for the future. I want to know Xplane is coming to steamDeck. The same market you mention that does not exist, might think YOU don't exist, as well, not because no one is willing to invest My point of why those numbers should not be excluded, never.

Read this again please. Your list of semantics does not matter for that perspective. If a future developer want to create an addon for MSFS Or Xplane, he will go for the one that has a wider market vs time invested (he can also do both, but let's assume it is not possible for the sake of argument). For now MSFS is the clear winner, but if you add another 5M+ (again, android only) to the Xplane pool, and since Xplane mobile vs pc share a lot (hence porting a product might be rather straight forward), then this has a dramatic change. But Xplane mobile is closed for 3rd party's for now, however this does not neglect it from being counted as a potential future market, hence I also mentioned steamDeck. That's my point, surveys are not just to create some buzz around avsim, rather about assessing current situation but also "predict" future trends.

Art development. Better graphics/FPS. I do agree however that XBOX/PS5 vs PC are more on par when it to comes to graphics/FPS than PC VS Mobile, but when talking numbers & $$$ you should never exclude other branches. This survey is not just to debate who is more successful, it is also for developers who want to invest time, example; if tomorrow Xplane mobile is open to 3rd party's that is a door for an insane market, with products that might be easily ported from PC (hence saving time gaining more $$$). Maybe even making it more profitable than MSFS. the same concept as MSFS XBOX. That's my point as well + add Xplane steam deck whenever it comes out (and steam do host 3rd party addons already so for this one it's only a matter of when, not if)

Please do quote where I said this, ever. I actually recall saying the exact opposite in multiple occasions, not just one. And this will answer your other question as well about why PC and not mobile/XBOX, because on PC I get better graphics and FPS. @abrams_tank I can see you hiding...

XP mobile VS XP desktop probably shares more or less the same % of code as MSFS PC VS MSFS XBOX, they even use the same formats, same flight model etc...difference goes to how (not) powerful GPUs are on mobile and how they work. If MSFS XBOX and PC where exactly the same, why XBOX needed specific development? why DX12 on PC is not at the same state as XBOX? why PMDG and others are having trouble there? Selective POV I call it, both MSFS and Xplane convert resources to XBOX/mobile, yet for one the users SHOULD be counted and for the other it should not because...? If you are bringing a survey covering all, all factors should be taken and not just the one that suits your view. Hence if you claim XBOX users will widen the gap although the exact same rules apply as well on mobile yet you ignore them, this is trying to set a narrative. @abrams_tank I will appreciate your proof and official stats, other than ignoring and hiding behind others. I already proved mine multiple times.

Hopefully won't go ignored as usual, but why count XBOX and not mobile? or is it when it comes to serve a very specific narrative? Be honest here.

Blackberry!

! This is not a discussion if someone is ignoring inconvenient comments.

You do realize if all non pc platform users where actually part of this, the gap between Xplane and MSFS will be much smaller, maybe even the other way around? How many MSFS XBOX users are they? Pretty sure Xplane mobile only has more than MSFS PC+XBOX combined, then for the future think about Xplane steam-deck is still WIP.

I appreciate the fact @abrams_tank pretty much chooses to ignore inconvenient comments, but then again, it makes me ask: what is the point of this thread then, opened by @abrams_tank on 3 different sections if not a legitimate discussion? (because ignoring comments, is not a discussion). Is it a fail "I told you so" thread?

Did somebody here actually TRY dx12 on MSFS? I did.....can't even call it an alpha (they call it a beta) imo yet it is considered a leap forward for some reason although it constantly crashes and has lower FPS.