I'm currently working on my first SID/STAR. It is for ENTC, and I've used several hours (days) to get it right. The biggest problem I've run into, is the fact that I can't tell by the syntax to make a left or right turn to get to a fix/navaid. Sometimes it is required to turn 180 degrees or more in order to reach next fix/navaid. If there was an option like that, ie LEFT NAVAID and RIGHT NAVAID, it would make it much easier! Like it is now, I feel it is to much time consuming writing a SID/STAR, trying to "fool" the logic. And this will probably be my first and last one, unless there will be a left/right syntax. Maybe the SID/STAR of ENTC is extraordinary, but I doubt it. Of course you can use a lot of fixes, but in many cases that wont work either if you like a smooth turn.Here is an example (see attachments). I still haven't found out how to write sid LOMVI 2B for ENTC. (Anyone out there that have any suggestion?). What I'm trying to do is make the plane turn to the right until it's heading KV. Not turning right and leveling until a fix, or leveling until reaching a radial. Just a nice uninterrupted turn until heading KV.Same problem with HTK 2Y, but I've sorted that one out after a lot of trial and error.SID HTK2Y RNW 19 KEEP HDG UNTIL 3800 HDG 300 UNTIL RADIAL 207 TO NAVAID TRO NAVAID TRO NAVAID HTKThis is an example of how easy it could have been if there was a left/right syntax:SID LOMVI2B RNW 19 KEEP HDG UNTIL 3800 RIGHT NAVAID KV NAVAID LOMVIand HTK 2Y:SID HTK2Y RNW 19 KEEP HDG UNTIL 3800 RIGHT NAVAID TRO NAVAID HTKAny chance there will be a new syntax like this in a future SU?Best regardsJonny JorgensenSAS Mechanic (MD-80/90,737NG,A321)

Yeah, I would agree with you Jonny. I think a syntax that would enable you to specify a left or right turn through more than 180 degrees would be a good idea.This has been suggested before. See http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search

Hi,Although it would be nice to have the possibility to specify a left or right turn I am not sure it would serve the purpose in all cases.Now to the specific question about the LOMVI2B sid for ENTC:If we look carefully at the charts available for ENTC it is obvious that the turn is initiated at KBV which should be reached at an altitude of 3,800 ft dollowing a climb gradient of 6.8%. The second remark is that the path toward KV overflies a fix named ABKBV. Finally it maybe helpfull (although not absolutely necessary) to take advantage of two fixes (D191C and D189H) to control the climb gradient.Therefore I submit here a Sid which take into consideration the altitude constraints and the two navaids mentioned above. The turn also not perfect in terms of trigonometry is smooth.SID LOMVI2B RNW 01 RNW 19 NAVAID D191C 430 NAVAID D189H 2590 FIX KBV 3800 NAVAID ABKBV 4100 NAVAID KV 9000 NAVAID LOMVIPlease comment on this proposal and if found acceptable let me know I will then write te other sids for that airport.Michael

Michael,Thanks for looking into this problem. Your solution would be good if you had to initiate the turn at KBV. But that's not a demand here. If you look at the description in the above attachment #2, you can (have to) initiate the turn as soon as you reach 3800 FT (but not later than KBV). The map doesn't reflect this fact, but the description does. I have confirmed this with a real pilot in Braathens. I find no demand that says you have to overfly ABKBV.I'm almost finished with ENTC, but feel free to do it. However, I hope you can take another airport in Norway that is missing SID/STAR. I think ENAT could be a good challenge for you. Send me a personal message or mail if you like maps/descriptions of SIDS/STARS for ENAT (or any airports in Norway).Jonny

Many of the "biggest" airports in Norway are missing the STAR in the PMDG SIDSTAR file. ENTC, ENBO, ENVA, ENBR, ENCN, ENTO for a start....the only complete one I have found is ENZV.

Go here for more Norwegian SIDS/STARS: http://www.pmdg.operations.dkIf PMDG could come up with a new left/right syntax, I'll write the SIDS and STARS for more Norwegian airports... If not, I won't do it cause it's to hard to get it the way I want it. Guess I'm too strict, but thats how I am. If I can't write the SIDS/STARS like it is in real life, I won't do it at all.PMDG....any coments about a new syntax, please?Regards,Jonny J

Hi Jonny,You are right when describing the heading and altitude restrictions before initiating the turn. This is why I looked at KBV which is located 10.5 NM from the airport. If you climb at a tate of 415 FT per NM you will reach the 3800FT altitude 0.8 NM before KBV. Therefore it is perfectly acceptable use KBV to initiate the turn. (Bear in mind that turns of more than 90 degrees are automatically initiated before the waypoint).As far as ABKBV is concerned you will notice that a standard turn initiated in the vicinity of KBV will bring the plane exactly over ABKBV. Therefore I used this waypoint as guidance only to set the plane on the proper course to KV with a smooth turn. More generally, at least for airports under the supervision of the FAA (I have no reason to doubt that the European authorities apply the same rules) it is common practice when SIDS and STARS are programmed to use ALL available navaids to ensure safe paths.Michael

Hi,Ok, ok... I'll look into the left right thing. Hope we'll make it for SU2. ;-)anthonyAnthony MertonPrecision Manuals Developmenthttp://www.precisionmanuals.com

Like Elvis would have said it:THANK YOU...THANK YOU VERY MUCH...And Michael,The reason that I like the plane to turn towards KV at 3800 FT is because that's how it's done in real life. Like I said, I called a friend of mine who is a 737 pilot i Braathens and asked how this SID is flown. He said he climbs to 3800, normal climb, when reaching 3800 he turns towards KV, and that is way before KVB. He does not climb at 415 FT/NM.And... The turn initiated as soon as you reach 3800 (any climb gradient over 6.8%) applies to most of the SIDS for RWY 19.I don't say that your procedure is wrong, but it's not how it is done in real life. (Except if you are flying a Cessna 172 with a worn out engine ;))Jonny