MCDUs, FMCs, FMSs... what else?

[Guest]

Seeing many many complex cockpit projects with lots of working switches,knobs,encoders and even flight computers (!!!) i came up with a very huge question:how do they interface them?Last time i exchanged emails with Peter Dowson (author of FSUIPC) he told me that every commercial airplane developer (this includes Dreamfleet, PSS, and others) refused to provide external interfaces.This (in simple words) means:with fsuipc you can build anything that completely controls FS... until you load a commercial airplane.Ever tried to change the altitude value of the autopilot with any commercial airplane?No effect (i tried) for any PSS.I assume no effect for the DF737 as well.This is because those developers completely (or partially as in the case of the DF) rewrote the autopilot code for their products.Now onto the previous question: if neighter FSUIPC is able to provide any interface to those fantastic peaces of software, all those FMCs, MCDUs, CDUs, and overhead panels, and efis menagement, and anything else...How do they work?FDS (last i visited so i remember) and others do sell complete panel kits, with hardware for nearly any panel you can find in any cockpit... then i assume there is people able to have them working.Here i ask them to please tell me (and anybody who cares) how do they interface their hardware to the software.ThanksClaudio

[Guest]

Claudio,Thats because most of us building cockpits could care less about the frills that accompany most of those commercial products. Were after one thing. A realistic flight model. Everything else we have either built or bought. And, most of us are also using the Project Magenta software which, until something else surfaces, is by far the most realistic software on the market. And I might note very easy to interface with the rest of the package, i.e. flight model etc.Michael

[Guest]

Yes i know that.I hate when a very beautiful plane flies like a Beatle!Really hate ;)But usually along with nice panel, with commercial planes come also realistic FDs.Anyway that's not the point.I'm asking how people makes all those switches working.Does Project Magenta feature an interface?If so then the wide use of switches and knobs to adjust PFD range, type, declutter and the rest is explained.If not then how do you run 'em?Does PM also feature an interface for the recent CDUs?'Cause i've seen working CDUs in some cockpits...That's what i'm asking: the interface.Think about all those (don't know if you have one... if so, probably you have a clear idea ;) )upper panels...Without some software (and PM as far as i know doesn't feature upper panels) how can you have all those brackers, fuel valves, hydraulic cutout generators, and the like working?I'm curious cause i have some electronic experience and i'd like to build something usefull, but before that i have to know how to do that.I don't have space for fictious things, so all what i build has to work.ThanksClaudio

[Guest]

hi claudio and all others.yes the problem is the autopilot which is build for most commercial aircraft packages in an own way.so i use the PM FCU and MCDU on my PSS 320. the PSS 320 autopilot is disabled( taken out the lines for gauges in panel CFG).to interface the PM i use the EPIC USB card. You can find all the offsets in PM documentation.another helpfull freeware program, which i use, is from Robert Fischer the FS communicator: http://www.flightsimulator.at/ : with this software you can access all the Variables defined in Peter Dowsons FSUPICso i can operate my homesim without very complex epic coding (still some hundred lines now).so you have also the variables in the overhead(Lights ,pumps and so on which are defined in FS 2k2)working from the switches. In the 320 PSS first used their keydefinition: so i can send a keystroke from Epic to an defined switch which is not in the FS upic set( example is the ecam switching panel).. and for leds and seven segments outputs i also use FS communicator.hope that can help Achim Bethkehttp://a.bethke.bei.t-online.de

[Guest]

Claudio, If you wish to know how to interface or programming the switches, knobs, encoders, button to enange/disenange or anything. I could either recommend you to purchase EPIC ISA/USB or build up the PIC. Programming up your own value as you wish , and this would send data to program it will convert the information (such as altitude change) in FS along with FSIUPC. Using piegonholes, would be the solution for your answer. If you wish to know more details, you might as well want to ask Ray Sotkiewicz. Or you might as well want to look up at 'Blue Sides Up EPIC Programming' forum. I must say, using any kind of developer products such as PSS or other would not give any kind effect of your wish. Since like you said, they rewrote the code and lock it to them. I believe none of our true cockpit sim builders would even want to hassle with developers' product unless they accept their effects.

[Guest]

That's not what i'm talking about.There is one other interface.That's the interface between the plane, and the hardware.Say i have a complete (and working) cockpit.What do i do with (say) the engine fire panel, if i don't have such functionality in the sim?Another example:to start a motor in fs by keyboard, require you to select the motor and then to start it.That means you simply can't use a simple keyboard encoder to realize engine starters.FSUIPC in this case come in handy, in that it provides instant access to almost any single option available in FS.But again, if FS doesn't contemplate engine fire, hydraulic pump failure, or fuel pump failure...Then fire extinguishers, emergency hyd pumps, fuel crossfeed and backup pumps, who are you able to operate them?The only idea that comes to my mind is that people who have complex cockpit have also designed personalized panel and planes, to get the maximu from their panel.

[Guest]

I am assuming that you are talking about having engine fire, hydraulic pump failure, fuel pump failure or such other warning indicator to be displayed on computer screen? If so... I do not know any kind of program that would have statisfied your wish. Only thing I am thinking of is purchasing project magenta and wait for his updated version. If you are talking about the warning indicator, or such other indicator to be displayed on any panel such as overhead, center, instrumental, and etc. Likewise I said, you would need to create your own circuit interface. PIC or EPIC USB/ISA along with output module. Once you have interfacing circuit, this will send data back/forth to/from FSUIPC and it would indicating the light/gauges on panel. Matt Witelpatch has the information all about FSUIPC working with his hardcore fighter cockpit, making everything working as real life. You might as well want to consult with him. My cousin is working on interfacing circuit for his ATC simulator, he created his own interface dialougue conversation with along with dowson's FSUIPC. Hope this help, if not... wish you luck :-outta

[Guest]

I dont know if this answers your question or not. But for starting our engines, we do it exactly like the real 767. We turn off the packs (AC), switch the individual engine start knob to "AUTO". Then we watch the engine display on the center Project Magenta screen while it revs (wav file playing) up to a certain percentage, then we open the specific fuel flow switch for ignition. Points of interest: When we turn off for example the left Packs switch, the left "Packs Off" annunciator lights.Everything is accomplished by #1, having realistic looking hardware. #2, by using EPIC hardware including the 32-point output module for the annuciators. The great P Dowson program "Esound" for WAV play.#3, by using Project Magenta software which integrates with FS by way of "WideFS"#4, and finally, by tieing it all togather with programming of the Epic.Here is a portion cut & pasted from the btndef.inc file from Epic.;row 2defbtn(64, on, TrimAir) defbtn(65, on, LPacks)defbtn(66, on, RPacks)defbtn(67, on, RIsol)defbtn(68, on, AntiColRL)Note that buttons 65 & 66 rfer to the left and right packs. This file doesn nothing more than to define {hence defbtn) what each button is doing.Now look at this cut and pasted section of the main EPL file::LPacks { if(PackOn) { #expand BtnPush(505);kill aircond looping fclr(PackOn) } else { fset(PackOn) } flippoint(PacksL_Lt) } :RPacks {flippoint(PacksR_Lt)}Here you can see what were telling EPIC it is suppose to do when button 65 & 66 are pressed. Number 1, it shuts down the aircond wav file that is playing from the recirc fan switch being on. Number 2, it tells the 32-point module to illuminate the address where the annunciator lights are attached. Small example of how the hardware ties into the software via Epic.I hope this small example gives you an idea. I could list many, many, more, but I think you should be able to understand it from this one example. Mike

[Guest]

>I hope this small example gives you an idea. I could list >many, many, more, but I think you should be able to >understand it from this one example. Yes, thank you Mike.Now i understood: both the power of the Epic (i don't have it so i can't easily uinderstand what it can do) and how do you simulate systems not implemented in FS.That makes me room for another question anyway:this means you have mad a HUGE file, with thousands lines of code, to simulate as many systems you could.Is this right?So you made everything by epic means?Say for example the master warning:i think you searched everywhere you could to get every trigger of the master warning, and then builded a function in your epic, that checks an incredible number of variables each pertaining to a different system, and thus representing the system's status.When a variable does not reflect the spcified value, then master warning is triggered...This could be my version at least :)And so you did almost the same thing for every thing you included in your system.Is that right?

[Guest AirPanther]

You can do anything you want with FSUIPC. I have written small apps which assign single keystrokes to commands which require macros or multiple steps. I think EPIC is fantastic, but one of the goals with my project is to develop a completely functional flight sim WITHOUT using EPIC. So far it's been a complete success, but it's been a big waiting game since rotary encoders and LEDs have always posed a problem. Here is a VB example of how to start the engines with a single keypressdim EngineStartKey = "e"public sub form1_KeyPress (keyascii...) If chr(keyAscii) = EngineStartKey then fsuipc_write... 'Set mixtrue rich fsuipc_write... 'Set mags to both if necessary fsuipc_write... 'Set engine state to on end ifend subIt's been months since I've worked on any FS apps so the above code may not be totally programmatically correct, but I assure you these steps will allow you to assign keypresses to ANYTHING. This includes autopilot functions and if you really want to get detailed, you can simulate functions which don't exist in MSFS. I had gotten Pro MFD to that point, but halted production for a while so I could build!Regards,Robert PratherPro MFDhttp://www.geocities.com/AirPanther/

[Guest]

Sorry to dissagree with you Robert but FSUIPC is limited. EPIC allows precision adjustment and mapping to such things as throttles, yokes, speed brake levers and anything else containing a pot. No keyboard or program such as FSUIPC can accomplish that. In fact, EPIC includes the software for this mapping feature. In all depends on just how far your willing to go (or pay) for realism.Erupter, to answer your question, yes and no. Granted our EPL file is quite large. But no it does'nt contain thousands of lines of code. In fact, there is a limit as to how much you can make that thing puke. LOL. But yes we have (2) master warning lights that are situated on either side of the MCP. The warning lights are actually built into a momentary switch which allows us to press the button to cancel the illumination and squelch the associated audible wav file. And yes you can program in multiple 'reasons' for triggering the master warning. But I would mention that FSUIPC probably could do the same in this instance.

[Guest]

DELTA would you please tell me what are the limit you are talking about in the EPIC system?And please could you point out how could i do such a thing (master warning in this case) with fsuipc only?Thank you very much, my ideas are clearing (and cleaning!) a lot!

[Guest AirPanther]

Nothing wrong with construcive dissagreement :-) Thanks for the clarification Mike.I guess I should have been clearer... The two biggest drawbacks to non-EPIC systems to date are:1.) Very little control over pot based controls.2.) Very difficult to control LED readoutsHowever, FS2K2 does a pretty good job keeping track of controls now, and Go Flight provides a nice solution for LED readouts. I definitely agree with Mike, EPIC is by far the best way to go, but it all depends on how much you are prepared to spend and compromise for realism. But for broke builders like me, we have to settle for keyboard cannibalism .Also, I should mention that there are ActiveX controls out there which give you virtually COMPLETE control over joysticks, hey aren't free but they aren't terribly expensive either. Then you could pass whatever control positions you want to fsuipc.RobertThe 777 Project (Now with lower bandwidth!)www.777Project.cjb.net

[Guest]

Amen to that Robert, the EPIC is expensive, no doubt about it. Initially its not too bad, but its all the add-on cards that add up real quick. Erupter, dont know about FSUIPC as it relates to master warning. I was merely mentioning that the variables could probably be extracted. I've never played with FSUIPC enough to know for sure. There are some folks on here that know it like the back of their hand and probably could help you immensely though. Dont worry about the file being too big regarding the EPIC. There is only two people I know that have reached the maximum and that was James Price and Matt Wietlispach. If you ever saw their sims you would know why. James now has a touch screen instrucutors station on his sim. Absolutely incredable!

[Guest]

Claudio,There are various means of interfacing hardware to software. EPIC is by far the most extensive and complex. However I know of one system which outstripped its capabilities and they had to install a parallel EPIC system. For simple hardware to software interfacing there are some freely available programs such as Luciano Napolitano's Key2Mouse program which allows you to "manipulate" those normally inaccessable add on software programs - very simple and effective. One John Dunckley in Austrailia has a site and offers freeware which runs alongside FSUIPC and sends various values to a com port. This is for interfacing analogue gauges to FS. The range of Hagstrom keyboard interfaces are extremely versatile. Our company currently is offering an MCDU keypad to flight simmers and cockpit builders which we provide interfaced with an adapted KE24 Hagstrom board - and pre-programmed to your simulation. We also have various control modules which can be simply interfaced for various home-cockpit purposes.I can understand the authors of those brilliant flight simulation add ons protecting their software code. It takes many valuable hours of programming and testing and great expense. The flight simulation community is very fortunate in that there are some programmers out there that do make their interfaces (mentioned above) available freely or at very low cost. For your example of being able to change the altitude, go and get Key2Mouse (free ware) and then get a KE24 Hagstrom board US$99.95 and a rotary. Within a few hours you will be able to change that altitude.Graeme RodgersCommand Fliteware International Ltdhttp://www.commandfliteware.com