Hi all,a few days ago I found a simple scheme to build a 2 or 4 levers throttle using the game adapter port.Then I tried to connect 2 potentiometers (220 KOhm linear) to the pin 3 and 6 of the game port, taking the +5V from the pin 1.The potentiometers have the central pin connected to +5V (common for both pot.) and the left pin to the pin 3 (pot. #1) and pin 6 (pot. #2).I configured this simple control in Windows (XP) as a custom "2 axis - 0 buttons Yoke or Joystick" (<-- the translation could not be correct since I have an italian XP) and everything went good since I got the "OK" from the driver.Then I made the calibration and there I found the first problem: the little cross cursor was not stable even though moving the potentiometer I got a smooth movement of the cross.I tried thus to open FS2004...assigned the throttle axis 1 and 2 to the pot. #1 and #2 and loaded an aircraft (Beechcraft 58).There were then two prblems:1) with throttle set to minimum, levers displayed in the panel were not stable but they jumped "up and down" continuosly and randomly especially the left one, but they stopped "jumping" moving them at about 3/4 of the course till the max;2) moving the potentiometers to the min throttle they stopped at about half course starting to jump as explaned in point #1.I checked all the connections but I didn't find anything wrong, so I connected it again to measure the voltage to understand the problem but another thing came out: moving one of the two pot. of a small rotation a windows message appeared reporting "the peripheral is disconnected" (or something like that since I have the italian version of XP) automatically disconnecting the game port.From there on I was not able to make it work anymore.Did I damage the port? Are those levers "shacking" due to the cable lenght? (I used an unshielded LAN cable, 2 meters lenght)Why I can't reach the min throttle turning the pot. on one end?Regards,Bob

1. Gameport expects 100k linear potentiometers.2. Gameport is very sensitive to interference. That's why you get the wobble. Putting shielded cable helps a bit, but it is very very very hard to get it totally stable and jump-free.3. In other words, gameport sucks. Try to avoid it.A good alternative is the USBAxis card from IOCards (www.opencockpits.com) or MJoy16 by Mindaugas (www.mindaugas.com) - those are basically USB joystick "internals" that you can wire your own potentiometers with. They have noise filtering, so you get zero wobble on the axis.//Tuomas

Another excellent option is using BetaInnovations's Plasma Lite V2(www.betainnovations.com).They've been offering real digital filtering since the beginning and constantly improving and adding innovative features to their products all the time. I use a GR256 and a Cyclotron unit and planning to include one of their analog input solutions into my plans soon. Also their support and advice is very good. This is what their Plasma Lite V2 specs say (from their website)----------------The Plasma-Lite

>Another excellent option is using BetaInnovations's Plasma>Lite V2(www.betainnovations.com).>>They've been offering real digital filtering since the>beginning and constantly improving and adding innovative>features to their products all the time. I use a GR256 and a>Cyclotron unit and planning to include one of their analog>input solutions into my plans soon. Also their support and>advice is very good. Heh, you make it sound like higher science :-)>This is what their Plasma Lite V2 specs say (from their>website)>>---------------->The Plasma-Lite

Well guys...thanks for the answers...I will "study" both systems since they seem to match what I'm looking for.Regards,Bob

>Heh, you make it sound like higher science :-)Well, actually IT IS ;-) that's why people get degrees in Electronics Engineering.>Basically this means: "It's a joystick." :)Claiming that "it's a joystick" is an extreme and I would say careless understatement. Besides, the fact that it is actually a "multi-analog-device input Interface Card" and NOT an "input device" or "joystick" per-se.>yeah. I forgot this one. I have the earlier version -- "Plasma>MiniME" -- built from Leo's instructions in my own simulator>and on the C172 sim at the club, they both work great. USBAxis>from IOCards is just as good, and I have no reason to believe>MJoy would be any worse. They all do the same thing, and offer>a good way to connect your self-made throttles etc without>much hassle."The all do the same thing" is again an extreme understatement. You are hard-pressed to find a commercial (and reliable) board the equals Plasma's specs and benefits - at its price - not to mention the extremely user-friendly and FREE configuration Windows software. It's like comparing cars - "they all have four wheels and an engine so they all must be doing the same thing".>The ATMEL / Microchip controllers are a great way>to do these it seems. Simple and cheap.The processor is only a minor part in the game. The art is in the firmware, and that makes products better or worse than others ;-)>And no drivers>required which is a bonus.No drivers required on Plasma boards either.>It does not really matter, the whatever-filtering-there-is>does the job just great.You are right it does not matter *for as long as they to their job*. The problems with non digital filtering start when the analog components ("capacitors" as you put it) start deviating from their specs due to temperature etc... the stability is not there anymore. As far as I am concerned, throttle stability and precise control of Yoke/pedals positioning is paramount. I do not plan to invest $1,000s in a cockpit just to be let down by a $50 (or less) device. But I might have my priorities reversed... >It works, is the main point, and it was a good>alternative to getting a joystick to blow up.I fully agree with you that simply connecting a joystick to the game port or USB is NOT a good solution. Serious input hardware should be a consideration for serious cockpit builders - if they want to have an enjoyable and fliable experience. /AL

>>Basically this means: "It's a joystick." :)>Claiming that "it's a joystick" is an extreme and I would say>careless understatement. Besides, the fact that it is actually>a "multi-analog-device input Interface Card" and NOT an "input>device" or "joystick" per-se.Well. Call it whatever you want, but it attachs to the joystick driver, has analog axis and buttons. That's a joystick in my book :) Sure Leo must feel proud for his creation, just like we feel proud of our own cockpit ideas. But it's still a joystick interface card. A good one of course.Besides, this was just to compare these three solutions: they all solve the same problem pretty much the same, giving excellent results.>>They all do the same thing, and>offer>>a good way to connect your self-made throttles etc without>>much hassle.>"The all do the same thing" is again an extreme>understatement. You are hard-pressed to find a commercial (and>reliable) board the equals Plasma's specs and benefits - at>its price - not to mention the extremely user-friendly and>FREE configuration Windows software. It's like comparing cars>- "they all have four wheels and an engine so they all must be>doing the same thing".Yes. Cars are all doing the same thing. Some do it with more comfort and luxury, but they all do the same thing.So are you trying to say the fine betainnovations product is some way far superior in solving the current users's problem in connecting his throttle potentiometers? So that it is the only sensible solution and neither IOCards USBAxis nor MJoy should be at all considered as options?Remember, I never said it was any worse. Forgetting the Plasma from my original posting was a pure accident.>>And no drivers>>required which is a bonus.>No drivers required on Plasma boards either.If you actually read my message again, you notice I was referring to all these boards at once - none of them require drivers.>You are right it does not matter *for as long as they to their>job*. The problems with non digital filtering start when the>analog components ("capacitors" as you put it) start deviating>from their specs due to temperature etc... the stability is>not there anymore. As far as I am concerned, throttle>stability and precise control of Yoke/pedals positioning is>paramount. I do not plan to invest $1,000s in a cockpit just>to be let down by a $50 (or less) device. But I might have my>priorities reversed... Yeah. Of course. But dude, please. Realize that Bob was working on a gameport setup. He is not concerned about $1000 investments on his cockpit just yet. So, while your post was an excellent advertorial for betainnovations products, which we no doubt now know are excellent and without fault, not to forgot the excellent price and value, it was irrelevant to his problem really. I just forgot to mention Plasma, so calm down and lets get back to building, shall we? :)>Serious input hardware should be a consideration for serious>cockpit builders - if they want to have an enjoyable and>fliable experience. My setup is perfectly enjoyable and flyable, thank you. No wobbling. It takes a LOT more than the interface card too though.. the stick / yoke travel and resistance etc need to be good enough and balanced etc.. For the interfacing part my USBAxis does its job just great, I see no difference between it and the Plasma MiniME. Sure the implementation is different, but they are both fine. I cannot comment on MJoy since I haven't built one, and I do not have needs for more analog axis just right now.On the other hand, I find it a bit strange to read stuff like this from a guy who seems to have a CH products yoke as the main flight controls. Not that it's a "bad" choice but when you start to talk about "serious cockpit building" and enjoyable flying experience with accurate control response.. umm.. Your panels and throttle has been a good inspiration, and the whole setup looks great! Do not get me wrong - I am just trying to put things in perspective here :)//Tuomas

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...... "The problems with non digital filtering starts when the analog components ("capacitors" as you put it)start to deviate due to temperature etc.....", sounds fishy to me. Even if you use bottom-of-the-barrel Z5U material caps, which are good from +10

Guys, I wouldn't like you to fight ;-) what I would like to do is to "experiment" with simple self-made I/O device trying to see if I can get something working decently for my "first-stage" home cockpit.Of course if I wanted not to waste my time with soldering and so on, I would have bought something "ready-to-use".But since I want always to go deeply into things, I wanted to understand what the reasons of that weird "behaviour" were.Now with your answers I've been able to focus the problem and to elaborate a first solution...I will try to replace the cable with a printer cable and...let's see what happens.Thank you, regards.Bob

Double "Hmmmmm",I see that giving information which happens not to agree with someone's opinion is hazardous to one's health... Maybe I was wrong in mentioning yet another excellent option (IMHO THE BEST available today for the money) and I was even more wrong to argue for it. I wonder if this would have gone any further than two posts if Betainnovation products were not involved - considering what has happened here in the not too distant past.If it is hard for people to acknowledge the absolute superiority of one solution over the other then it's not my problem, so no more arguments from me on this thread.I am quite happy with the candid advice and substantiated claims that I made and call it a day. Have fun with the rest of the arguments and counter-arguments on the subject.As the English would put it, ultimately, the proof is in the pudding.AL

1. This was not really a fight. :) It was just lively discussion. Where was the calling of names, grabbing of throats, throwing of sharp objects? Nowhere to be found. Thus, this can be classified as "civil discussion", right?>I see that giving information which happens not to agree with>someone's opinion is hazardous to one's health... Maybe I was>wrong in mentioning yet another excellent option (IMHO THE>BEST available today for the money) and I was even more wrong>to argue for it. I wonder if this would have gone any further>than two posts if Betainnovation products were not involved ->considering what has happened here in the not too distant>past.You were absolutely right in pointing out Plasma which I forgot. But you also covered it with quite a lot of techno-jumble that really does not matter much in the stuff we do, like GusB so excellently explained above.Lets keep the conspiracy theories out of this, please :) Remember, I am a happy BetaInnovations product user myself too. Lets not make this bigger than what it really is.>If it is hard for people to acknowledge the absolute>superiority of one solution over the other then it's not my>problem, so no more arguments from me on this thread.Well, if it somehow were "absolutely superior" I'd leave it there and believe you - But is there really a reason why the exact hardware you have and enjoy works *significantly* better in a home cockpit than, say, MJoy or USBAxis? Big words make me feel weird, that's why I picked on them. It sounded like the other alternatives were somehow bad and should absolutely be avoided, although they too are excellent choices for making a throttle console. I'd prefer we avoid marketing lies on this forum and rather stick to personal, first-hand experiences, friendly advice and helping each other further.It's nothing personal and I never wanted to start an argument really. Things argued, not persons.//Tuomas

>Guys, I wouldn't like you to fight ;-) what I would like to>do is to "experiment" with simple self-made I/O device trying>to see if I can get something working decently for my>"first-stage" home cockpit.>Of course if I wanted not to waste my time with soldering and>so on, I would have bought something "ready-to-use".>But since I want always to go deeply into things, I wanted to>understand what the reasons of that weird "behaviour" were.>Now with your answers I've been able to focus the problem and>to elaborate a first solution...I will try to replace the>cable with a printer cable and...let's see what happens.It helps a bit to use a shielded cable, but it is very probably still going to wobble a bit, unfortunately. Might get to tolerable levels though. Dont watch the throttle move in FS, as you dont need the gauge anymore :) What matters is that if it is bad enough to actually change the power setting noticeably.The problem with making these usb things yourself is that you need to program the microcontroller, thus it might be better to get started with a ready-made board (or at least readily-programmed chip) - there's still the fun of building.But good luck with the gameport, I used it too and it was reasonably good once I used shielded cable. But as I needed more potentiometer inputs, I "upgraded" to MiniME, and was pleased by the non-wobbly quality as well.//Tuomas

Last evening I tried again after having replaced the LAN cable (previously used) with a printer cable, connecting the shield wire (only on DB15 side) and...I can tell you I got a stable "device".Then I "played" a bit with settings of FSUIPC so I was able to control also the reverse "modulation".At this point I think I will start building a "2 turboprops with pitch control" throttle quadrant since I can use 4 potentiometers (King Air 350, ATR42/72-500, Fokker 27 etc etc).For the remaining levers such as flap lever and spoiler lever I think I will build a FSBUS analogue input card.Greetings,Bob

>Last evening I tried again after having replaced the LAN>cable (previously used) with a printer cable, connecting the>shield wire (only on DB15 side) and...I can tell you I got a>stable "device".>Then I "played" a bit with settings of FSUIPC so I was able to>control also the reverse "modulation".>At this point I think I will start building a "2 turboprops>with pitch control" throttle quadrant since I can use 4>potentiometers (King Air 350, ATR42/72-500, Fokker 27 etc>etc).Cool! I'm glad to hear about your success. I too succeeded eventually, had to use aluminium foil to shield the cables.. it did look _strange_ but it worked.>For the remaining levers such as flap lever and spoiler lever>I think I will build a FSBUS analogue input card.Do you have the rest of FSBUS already? Since, if you just want to start with something, I think it makes more sense to get the parts kit from IOCards for USBAxis (21 euros + postage, 26 for completed board) or build MJoy.Why? Because the FSBUS analog card does not work via the joystick setup. What does this matter then? Well, you cannot use FSUIPC facilities to calibrate the axis. This might not be a problem for you, but it's a thing to take into account. Sure it can be calibrated with the FSBUS software, but FSUIPC does have pretty good stuff for axis.Naturally if you have FSBUS already, then it is a logical addition to the setup you already have.//Tuomas

Well...actually I already have FSBUS COM card with KEY card...I found components easily here...now I'm waiting for a plexiglass panel that, hopefully, a friend of mine can "cut" for me since he owns a company that works for Aerospace, the manufacturer of ATR airplanes.They make complete panels for ATR (without instrumentation) so it might be a good chance for a good panel ehehGreetings,Bob