It was suggested on another forum that I post the following here in the hopes that somebody can direct me to a good yoke,rudder & throttle system for the 737NG or 767 series a/c.I have been a desktop pilot for over 8 years and have flown most of all of the software sim's including PS1.3a, PMDG 737NG's, PIC767 and the Level D 767. All all superb in their systems but the biggest glitch in all of the above software is the LACK of a good YOKE & THROTTLE arrangement. I had over 2 hours on the real 737 NG-700 flight simulator and I can also tell you that I trained on the PMDG 737NG software and it was a breeze knowing all about the systems and the aircraft in general. The biggest disappointment however is that nobody has developed or marketed a YOKE & RUDDER set-up that is AFFORDABLE with a reasonable real-feel for what it's really like to hand fly the approach/landings & takeoffs.Are there any real pilot's out here that can comment on a halfway decent yoke & rudder system that doesn't break the bank or do I have to purchase the PFC type's? Just asking because flying the real simulator is a 'whole lot different' than a cheap CH yoke & rudder arrangement. Not even close to the real forces involved...It seems ashame that the industry is so far advanced on the software systems and graphics of these highly sophisticated aircraft and have not come up with....as I mentioned before...a medium priced halfway decent 'Yoke & Rudder' combined with a decent Throttle set with TOGA, trim & autopilot disconnects where they should be located. If anybody knows of a system that fulfills all of these criteria, please respond.Regards to all,noullet

>Are there any real pilot's out here that can comment on a>halfway decent yoke & rudder system that doesn't break the>bank or do I have to purchase the PFC type's? Just asking>because flying the real simulator is a 'whole lot different'>than a cheap CH yoke & rudder arrangement. Not even close to>the real forces involved...I was reading this and was thinking "if PFC is not "breaking the bank"-level for you.."I dont know if there is anything else decent out there. And even their stuff is not very heavy duty. I guess the "jetliner" yoke is pretty good. They are precise and good construction though. Also pricey.If there was something I guess we'd know by now. Most people go for the CH when there is nothing better around, unless you build yourself.>It seems ashame that the industry is so far advanced on the>software systems and graphics of these highly sophisticated>aircraft and have not come up with....as I mentioned>before...a medium priced halfway decent 'Yoke & Rudder'>combined with a decent Throttle set with TOGA, trim &>autopilot disconnects where they should be located. The strong control forces probably have one big issue for manufacturers: You really do need to bolt the controls down. Also, you need to get the whole set at once - which makes the price even higher. Imagine having a really good and heavy yoke with the CH pedals for example - just as in real planes, on sim controls the balanced feel of crontrols is very important. So, the CH rudder + pedals can be a very nice set, unless you go and spoil yourself in a real big boys' sim or try a real plane.. :-)It sucks, indeed. I built myself a control stick for my sim, but building takes a lot of time and effort and is not for everyone. If you love to fly, just shell in the cash and get the PFC set, building will end up costing you A LOT MORE - RUN away from us while you can ;-)//Tuomas

I'm sure it's been suggested that you have a go at building a yoke yourself and while that might sound difficult, it really isn't as tough as it might seem. I know because I built one myself (well two actually, one for the co-pilot - if my wife ever fancies changing her mind about my lack of sanity and sitting in the right seat).And yes they do operate in unison and they even move with the autopilot inputs. How? Well here is a description, and from that you might be tempted to have a go at it...First up, the actual yokes were built from copper pipe (you can get a little gizmo from most DIY/hardware stores to assist you in bending copper pipe, it's kind of like a heavy spring which goes inside the pipe and prevents it from collapsing when you bend it, think mine was about 7 UK pounds, and of course I now have a plumbing tool should the plumbing bug ever bite me - unlikely).The advantage of using copper is that it is easily workable into a decent basic 'U' shape as a starting point, and being hollow, is also perfect for running your wiring from the yoke too (note hat I actually cut out a bit of the pipe on the inside of the bend to make forming the required shape easier). The other advantage with copper is that you can braze it easily (with a blowtorch) if you need to add other bits to your basic shape. Once I had the approximate shape I wanted, I built it up and tweeked it using model aircraft filler and lots of careful sanding (in my case Milliput, but you could use anything you think is suitable). Also brazed onto the basic shape is a smaller length of copper pipe onto which the autopilot disconnect button is mounted.Where you go from here depends on the type of yoke you are attempting to emulate, but in my case I was making one for an older type of airliner than the 737NG, so I actually used the slip over plastic grips of the type you find on cycle handlebars, as they were a good match for the indented finger grips I required. The central 'box' part (where the checklist/clip for an approach chart is on a B737 yoke) was simply made out of an MDF slab sided trapezium-shaped box, bolted to the main copper yoke part. Attached to this at a right angle is another piece of copper tubing which sleeves over a smaller diameter tube to allow the thing to turn in the manner of a collet.Now the fun part, on the 'axle' of the yoke there is a right angled bell-crank (similar to the type one attaches to the servo motors used on model aircraft). This bell-crank operates the several similar ones via stiff steel wire (actually it's wire salvaged from old coat-hangers) This linkage connects the yoke on the other side of the cockpit, hence when one yoke moves, so does the other.But what about the columns the yokes sit on? Well, once again a trip to your local hardware store's plumbing bit will reveal lots of different diameter plastic piping (the sort used for guttering). Two identical lengths for the upright bits which attatch to the yoke and one bit to link them across the bottom and you're in business. But here is the really clever part, if you conceal this below your cockpit floor, you can use the purpose-built parts for attaching the drainpipe to a wall as fixings which will also allow the yokes to move backwards and forwards. Then it is simply a case of gutting an old joystick and linking your bell-crank system to that.I'm not going to go to great lengths describing that part - I'm sure you can work it out, on my arrangement, all that part is concealed by the central pedestal, I merely linked my cranks to the relatively intact remains of an old logitec force feedback joystick, which means that when the stick is moved by the autopilot in FS, it moves my yokes). I even used the button wiring of the old joystick as the basis for my autopilot disengage and radio transmit buttonsas well as salvaging the throttle part as the basis for my cockpit's throttle too.The whole arrangement cost about thirty quid tops (plus a few evening's head scratching to work stuff out, such as how to cut the drainpipes and join them effectively - the big clue here is that you can get glue specifically for that type of softish PVC plastic)Anyway, the whole thing works brilliantly and it looks just like the real thing, even if I do say so myself and is a #### site cheaper than buying something which doesn't even look like you want it to.Hope this helps.

Can you post pictures of your yoke?Also, how did you do the centering force? How much force does one need to pull the yoke all the way back for example? How did you do the aileron axis centering?//Tuomas

Regretably, not having a camera at the moment, I can't get a picture of the yokes, I do intend to remedy this soon by sticking some stuff on a website about my cockpit, as seems to be the fashion (probably in a month or so when I'm not too busy).The centering force is handled by two small 'bungy' cables (the sort you secure luggage with) which are part or the wire system that operates the head of the dismembered joystick in the left and right movements via cables run through metal rings (the pitch control is handled via a simple pushrod). Also, the actual centering force of the joystick does this to some extent.Actually the main reason for this 'bungy' arrangement was not to enable a centering force, but rather to relieve tension in the aileron system when the yoke was pulled back, the fact that it acts as a centering force was more of a happy accident! Also this helps protect the set up from damage when the logitech's force feedback 'freaks out' with wild force feedback deflections (which it very occasionally does - when the online weather updates for example).If Santa brings me a replacement camera, I will get some pictures posted, but for now, you'll just have to trust me - it works well and looks good!Al

Cool.That does not sound very "heavy-duty" though, what the original poster was after.We are talking about ~15-25kg force to pull the yoke all the way back for example. And a hydraylic damping feel so it doesnt smash right onto the panel when you let go :-)//Tuomas

It's interesting that you should consider my set up as not sounding very 'heavy duty'. It raises a few novel points.Actually you might be surprised how sturdy my yokes set up is (of necessity since it has to transmit the shock energy of force feedback). Naturally, how sturdy ones homebuilt cockpit is depends very much on how meticulous one is with construction and reinforcement, but I can tell you that when put together with care and attention, a combination of ABS plastic and copper can actually be pretty hardwearing. After all, both the main materials used in my yokes were originally intended to be used in the construction of the utility services for a house!Needless to say, I'm not going to pretend that they are as tough as the stuff you'd find in the business end of a real jet airliner, but having said that, they do the job.How sturdy my yokes were, and are, was actually an important criteria for me, since my cockpit emulates an older airliner (i.e. one without an FMC). This means that it requires more manual flying than a modern airliner would do, since it can't automatically fly SIDs STARs and holds and is not equipped with an autothrottle. This I considered to rather be the point of building a simulator in the first place, as I personally saw little point in going to the trouble of building a simulated airliner, only to get in it and let go of the control column 400 feet above the runway after take off, press CMD and barely touch the yoke again until the autopilot was disengaged on finals at the destination!Of course some may like to fly like that (me included sometimes) and if they do, that's great. But if they do, one has to ask,: how sturdy do the yokes really need to be?I believe the original poster of this thread was interested in yokes for either a B737NG or a B767. Believe me, I very much enjoy flying PMDGs 737NG, but for me it is not the kind of aircraft I would personally like to fly in a homebuilt cockpit, since so much of the flight is controlled via the MCP.Now, I'm not suggesting that there is no point in having a homebuilt cockpit that emulates that kind of aircraft operation - quite the contrary in fact, as there are many other elements to commercial flying that I find interesting, as there are many reasons why someone should choose to build a cockpit. But for me personally, in a homebuilt cockpit it doesn't light my candle, since there is going to be so much time 'off the stick and rudder'. That being the case, again I ask, so how sturdy does a yoke have to be when, for the aircraft you are modelling your cockpit on, it is essentially redundant for 95 percent of the flight? Far better to concentrate on the integrity of the flight management systems in that case, I would have thought.As an experiment, try flying a commercial airliner flight (on the type you intend to build as your cockpit) at your desktop with a normal joystick and time how long you spend actually flying the thing manually and how much you rely on the autopilot. That should give you an idea of how 'heavy duty' things really need to be.You might be surprised - AlPS. Of course, you could go all French on us and model an Airbus (not the first one though) and that would solve the problem of having to build any yokes at all!As they say: What's the ideal flight crew for an airliner? - A man and a dog - the man is there to feed the dog, and the dog is there to bite the man if he tries to touch anything!

>It's interesting that you should consider my set up as not>sounding very 'heavy duty'. It raises a few novel points.Just to make things straight, I did not intend to put your setup in bad light in any way, just wondered about the centering mechanism. Because I know force feedback joysticks do not have *that* strong force.However, using a FF joystick for feedback in a yoke system is very interesting, if you can get a camera (or do some drawings?) it would be interesting to see. I remember years and years back there was this Japanese guy who used to have really fancy stuff using this technique.I once toyed with the idea of using the ms sidewinder force *electronics* with some power amplified thing and putting in stronger motors, but I dont have the electronics skills to do that. It would be interesting though :)>Actually you might be surprised how sturdy my yokes set up is>(of necessity since it has to transmit the shock energy of>force feedback). Naturally, how sturdy ones homebuilt cockpit>is depends very much on how meticulous one is with>construction and reinforcement, but I can tell you that when>put together with care and attention, a combination of ABS>plastic and copper can actually be pretty hardwearing. After>all, both the main materials used in my yokes were originally>intended to be used in the construction of the utility>services for a house!Yeah. I do not doubt that at all. I was just wondering about the control forces themselves.>Needless to say, I'm not going to pretend that they are as>tough as the stuff you'd find in the business end of a real>jet airliner, but having said that, they do the job.>How sturdy my yokes were, and are, was actually an important>criteria for me, since my cockpit emulates an older airliner>(i.e. one without an FMC). This means that it requires more>manual flying than a modern airliner would do, since it can't>automatically fly SIDs STARs and holds and is not equipped>with an autothrottle. This I considered to rather be the point>of building a simulator in the first place, as I personally>saw little point in going to the trouble of building a>simulated airliner, only to get in it and let go of the>control column 400 feet above the runway after take off, press>CMD and barely touch the yoke again until the autopilot was>disengaged on finals at the destination!I hear you, brother :-) It's the way to go, I agree. I'm building a ga twin for the same reason. To get my hands and brain full of flying.>Of course some may like to fly like that (me included>sometimes) and if they do, that's great. But if they do, one>has to ask,: how sturdy do the yokes really need to be?>I believe the original poster of this thread was interested in>yokes for either a B737NG or a B767. Believe me, I very much>enjoy flying PMDGs 737NG, but for me it is not the kind of>aircraft I would personally like to fly in a homebuilt>cockpit, since so much of the flight is controlled via the>MCP.Well, those planes do have the flight director though, and you can hand fly them using that. But yea, this is one of those endless questions without an answer I guess, and we even agree :)But yeah. Flight controls are important. And what is perhaps even more important is the *balance* between the components. Here's my setup:I built a stick, because I have not found a way to do a good yoke yet. Perhaps someday. Nevertheless, it does not matter at all. Call it a "diamond twin star" if you must - it has a stick.http://tigert.com/aviation/vatsim/cockpit-.../kludge++-4.jpgI have a set of flight link pedals I got from a friend for a good price. They are pretty heavy duty. Thus my stick, while it feels very good and has quite nice centering force, is a bit "too light" compared to the pedals. So I will probably construct a new one in the future, once the rest of the sim is done.This is the whole panel, still need to finish the avionics.http://tigert.com/aviation/vatsim/cockpit-...nel-sep4-05.jpgIn any case, I am very interested in how people do the mechanisms - there are so many ways to do it and I havent quite figured out the best possible way for a yoke yet. //Tuomas

That looks like quite a nice set up you have there. And I see that you too are discovering the unavoidable joys of carpentry that seem to go hand in hand with building a cockpit.Apparently my wife is threatening to buy herself a new camera, or so she said the other day, so perhaps I can steal that for an evening and get some pics up of my efforts. This is what happens when you leave a job and can no longer borrow the company's digital camera!- Al

You sir should be commended and also ought to think about making this a side-business. I'm sure you could cook up alot of demand..Regards & great job.jack