*I decided to start a new thread on this subject as the other topic I started is getting pretty long and mainly discusses CPU selection*I'm thinking about upgrading my rig a little by way of a new CPU/GPU combo. I am pretty sure I will try to get a X2 4800+ CPU, but the GPU I am pretty stuck.I am limited to looking at single-slot solutions only because my computer case is an SFF and does not handle the dual-slot coolers on the highest end cards.Therefore, I have narrowed my choice down to 2 chips: the nVidia 7900GT or the ATi X1900GT.The 7900GT seems to be a pretty clear winner in the majority of tests, however I don't know how well that translates to FS9 performance- as typically hardware review sites focus on more popular games such as Half Life 2, Quake4, F.E.A.R, etc. Since I don't play any of those games, only FS9, I tend to take said reviews with a grain of salt. That said, the 7900GT still seems to be on top. Furthermore, the 7900GT reportedly draws less power and creates less heat. Combined with the possibly quieter coolers that come on some 3rd party cards (i.e. MSI or PowerColor or eVGA) then this card might be better suited for me as well due to my SFF case and overall pickiness with regards to noise.The X1900GT, however, has one BIG thing going for it: it can render HDR scenes using FSAA at the same time. It is my understanding that the 7900GT cannot do this. Obviously this does not matter for FS9, but when one considers the upcoming release of FSX- a sim that will use HDR rendering, this can be a big issue. We all know that FSAA is pretty important to us simmers, as there are many edges in a typical sim scene. Also the relatively slow movement of onscreen elements when compared to fast paced FPS means we actually are able to get a good look at those edges too. Therefore I forsee that having a card that can do both HDR and FSAA to be very beneficial when running FSX- this combination of features in FSX is actually probably so important such that I would almost consider the 7900GT card unusable for FSX!The drawbacks of the X1900GT, however, are supposedly lower performance (again, maybe not a big issue in FS9 but possibly in FSX?) and also a higher power consumption/heat production when compared to the 7900GT. I have also read, however, that the ATi coolers are more advanced than their nVidia counterparts and despite this higher heat production, smart fan speed management circuitry actually makes X1900GT cards quieter on average when compared to 7900GT cards. Again considering noise is also important to me, I might actually prefer the X1900GT.Regarding FS9 and FSX: I have been planning on performing this last upgrade of my current rig here in the near future. This would allow me to really run FS9 with no concerns whatsoever to performance (read: TONS of addons and weather, AI, high-res textures, etc) during the final months of FS9's lifespan. Then, when FSX comes out, it is my hope that this computer (after upgrade) will be able to run FSX at least decently. I would run FSX on this current machine then until such time as DX10 is out and has matured a little, at which point I will spec and build a new computer from the ground up, specifically for running Vista and FSX. But the fact that I will be running FSX on this current rig for a while should be reflected in the components I select for this upgrade, hence the trepidation I have towards getting the 7900GT.Lastly, the question of video memory. I looked on ZipZoomFly (because for some strange reason the AMD X2 4800+ at ZZF is $70 cheaper(!!!) than it is on newegg- meaning I will likely purchase it there) and saw that it is possible to buy a 7900GT card with 512MB video memory. Again, probably a moot point in terms of FS9 performance, but I am pretty sure that 256MB extra memory will be much appreciated in the era of FSX. An analogous situation involving CPUs is the dual core vs single core issue: dual core processors give no real benefit in FS9 but in FSX they will definitely provide significantly better performance- even at lower clock speeds.I could not seem to find evidence of any X1900GT that has 512MB video memory on it. Do you think I should not worry about the 256MB/512MB issue, or do you think I should be considering a 7900GT based on the fact that I can pick up a 512MB version of the card?I guess I should say that I am open to suggestions here, in case there is a GPU I have been overlooking. Remember, here are the requirements that must be met:Single-slot coolers ONLYPrefer a quiet card512MB memory preferrablePerformance approximately or greater than 7900/X1900-class cards(tall order, eh? :))Suggestions can also come in the form of cards-yet-to-be-released in the near future, as I can probably wait a month or so if something new is coming up around the corner.Thanks for your input!RuahrcP.S. and if pricing should play significantly into the matter- I see a steal of a deal at newegg, where you can pick up a Connect3D X1900GT for $289 and then file a $100 mail-in rebate thus making that X1900GT $189! That's a pretty big savings on a pretty good card. Unfortunately, the card is out of stock (naturally) but the rebate is valid for purchases made through 8-4-06 (the day that newegg is expecting to get more in stock). Thus if you can buy the thing on the 4th right when they get in, you might still qualify for the rebate- providing they actually get in stock on the 4th. But something to be watching if you're considering a new graphics card...

@ 1024x, 512MB isn't necessary and a 7900/X1900 is overkill. Big times. As mentioned, if you do not intend to change your display/resolution, anything beyond a 7600 or X1600 is overkill. With a mail-in rebate of 100$, you should be able to get one of the b.m cards for less than 100$. :-) Powerful GPUs draw more power and thus require more cooling which in return causes more noise. 'Lesser adapters' use less power so there's less need for cooling. If of concern, noise is almost certainly an issue with single-slot, top-notch adapters. Good luck and kind regards Jaap

I understand it's a bit over-the-top for FS9 at 1024, but what about when FSX rolls around?I am beginning to think I should just go with a CPU upgrade right now and find out if that alone will give me the performance I am looking for. If it is fine then I will get a new GPU nearer the FSX release, when prices will drop or cards will get better. I guess the worst case scenario is that I lose out on shipping costs- that is if I don't get free shipping with it anyways.Ruahrc

My opinion, Get the AMD and use your current GPU (whatever you have as long as it works good currently). When FSX comes around likely that 99% will restock their current GPU with a DX10 card. So best of after that release to get a new card, you can't go wrong with a CPU that will work with whatever version FS

>>I understand it's a bit over-the-top for FS9 at 1024, but what about when FSX rolls around?<< If your display hasn't changed with FSX, the resolution will still be the same. :-) Therefore, under DX9 nothing should change. Mentions about DX10 and FSX are probably speculative. You mentioned that playing around with AA/AF settings had an influence on performance, so there might be a - likely small - benefit if you get a X1600 or 7600. Personally, I fully agree with Davis' recommendation. Specially since you like loads of AI. :-) Good luck and kind regards Jaap

Well, here's what happened:I ordered an AMD X2 4800+ CPU along with the Connect3D X1900GT 256MB video card. The CPU I had settled on, I got the new video card because Connect3D is running a $100 rebate on the card so it will come out to be $199 from ZipZoomFly. At that price, the drawbacks in performance vs. the 7900GT can be overlooked as it was for me too good a deal to pass up.Unfortunately for Newegg, their X2 4800+ CPU (exact same one) is priced $70 higher than ZipZoomFly. I still don't understand why this is, although now that I think about it it is possible that ZZF is using the new 2x512KB L2 cache chips whereas Newegg is trying to get maximum profit from the remaining 2x1MB L2 cache chips they have left. I guess we'll see which kind I recieve. Also, the fact that although the Connect3D GPU is about $20 less at newegg, ZipZoomFly has it in stock, meaning I am guaranteed eligible for the rebate (Actually ZZF's $100 rebate is good through 8-15-06). Thus the sale goes to ZZF this time.I also read some more reviews on the X1900GT and from what it says, it's a significantly quieter card than the 7900GT, which tells me I would have probably not liked the 7900GT simply due to the fact that it would be too loud. Also, differing architechture philosophy between the two GPU chips is what causes the differences in performance. Some games are better suited for the 7900GT, others are better suited for the X900GT. It's probably impossible to tell which one FSX will favor until such time as it has been released anyways.Jaap- your comment about the same resolution in FSX isnt entirely accurate. FSX will have much more complex rendering pathways, requiring more GPU power. Thus, even though the resolution would stay the same, the fps would drop- despite the same resolution and DX9. I highly doubt the 6600GT will be able to pull decent performance in FSX. Nevertheless, I agree with you that I will see less benefit from the new GPU as opposed to the new CPU. However, the purchase was made with FSX in mind.At any rate, the new hardware should really make FS9 shine, I'm excited for the boost in performance. The big assumption now is that this setup will make do for about a year when I build up a brand new Vista+DX10 system. Hope it all goes well!Hey it's only money, right? And what good is money for but to spend :)Ruahrc

>>>Hey it's only money, right? And what good is money for but to spendAs long as you spend it wisely>>>it's a significantly quieter card than the 7900GTwhere did you read that? infact it runs hotter, is more power hungry on your PSU and is imoo louder than the 79 (i've had both cards)>>>the purchase was made with FSX in mind.Know that you will be spending more money once FSX is released, simply because the card you bought will not and won't support DX10, there have been many topics and discussions about it allreadyWith all that said, It is your money and I hope you have a blast with your new system :)

>>Jaap- your comment about the same resolution in FSX isnt entirely accurate. FSX will have much more complex rendering pathways, requiring more GPU power. Thus, even though the resolution would stay the same, the fps would drop- despite the same resolution and DX9.<< Could very well be I'm mistaken... :-) As far as I'm concerned, mentions about FSX are speculation so I prefer to not engage. Could it be that you've discounted the possibility (probability?) that FS9 only uses a fraction of your current GPU's capabilities? I wish you heaps of fun with your upgraded rig, Ruahrc, kind regards Jaap

Ruahrc...Nahhh...You did Good...I look forward to hearing how she run's out for you!! Nice deal on the videocard!! I'm not too familiar with that one(ATi X1900GT)...I'm off to go read about it myself...Checkin' out your new stuff..he he...Connect3D is suppose to be a good ATI vendor..Should be a good card..I had an Connect3D X1900 Crossfire card recently...(I was trying out a CrossFire set up on the FX-57)...I Really liked that card...But I gave it to a buddy of mine to help him out on a new system he was building...So I've abandoned CrossFire for the moment in lue of 7950...he he To couple a fast processor with a weak videocard..is..and always will be..a bottleneck...Which will have a direct effect on your systems performance...You made the right decision..My 4800x2 is running basically Dead On what the 4000+ was running...I've still not had the time to fly allot to wring her out though...But it "Feel's" very much like the 4000 did...Hopefully you'll like it...I do feel you and your "overhead" will possiably benifit more than I...I do have ASV6 up...I havn't noticed any pauses or anomolies what so ever...I 'm still tryin to figure out how to re-install Ult Traffic...(I knew I shouldn't have changed my Raid0 stripe size..he he)...Soooo..as of now I have no traffic..he he...I havn't had the time to figure out how to re-install any of that F-1 downloader stuff yet..Oh well..I really want to get the CS C-130 up and running..and LevelD 767...Every thing I have in thusfar is running good though...One note from your other thread...I noticed the "Pricing Decrepency" of the 4800x2 at newegg also...There shouldn't be a 4800x2 with 512mb lvl2 cache...I'm sure you'll get 1mb of lvl2 cache on your's...Don't worry about that...newegg is just Higher...My local supplier(newegg competator) has a note on their website something to the effect: As the supply of the 4800x2 begin to deminish...The price will go up...They actually state that!! So it may be a case that newegg is running lower than ZZF?? Who knows?? It's all a racket..he he I paid $380 for mine...One thing you may want to check...You may need to flash your MotherBoard Bios to the latest Rev...Since the x2 processors have evolved more recently..Some mb's were shipped with bios that may not recognize the hardware..A bios flash would do the trick though..Here is another Good link..You outta check out the Processor Driver and the AMD Dual-Core Optimizer:http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/Techni...71_9706,00.htmlGood Luck with your upgrade!! Hope you like it!! I'm off to check out your videocard now..he he

Not too sure how adventurious you are..or how much of a tweeker you are...I noticed..while taking a quick look at your X1900GT..That in an effort to save some money..ATI is using the R580 core in that card..Rather than using a new core for the GT..They have "Disabled" some features from the XTX cards and are using the same R580 core...I just love when they do that!!OK..I don't want to get you too wound up on this...I have not read hardly ANY of this...I have to go to bed or I won't wake up for work in the AM..he heAs soon as I saw "R580" and "disabled" in the specs..I immediatly knew a few key words I wanted to google..he he...Ahh..As I suspected..It appears those crafty hardcore guru's have a crack to unlock the disabled features and viola...Fully functioning R580...he he....Now Again..Before you get all wound up about this...I have read none of it...If this interests you...You'll have to read all this thread yourself and study up on a mod like this...I'll just mention my expierence below...I'm typing on my "Old Faithful" Athlon64 3400+, X800Pro(Soft Modded to XTPE) AGP system....This thing has a Sapphire X800Pro(Vivo) videocard...When I bought the videocard I came across some info similar to what I see with the X1900GT your getting...The X800Pro(VIVO Version!!) was actually a X800XTPE which had some pipes "locked" and Ram set to a slower clock speed...In other words...In an effort to save some money...ATI just build one VIVO card..The X800XTPE...Then through the bios..They de-tuned it to make the X800Pro which they sold cheeper...Now in this X800 case..In order to perform this mod from the X800Pro to XTPE..The card HAD to be a VIVO card...Those were the de-tuned XTPE's off the production line...They had 90nm Samsung Ram and all 16pipes were functional but just "disabled" in the bios...The non Vivo cards used 120nm Ram and had a "Hard Lock" on the pipes to dis-able them...Now there was a mod for them as well(Pencil+Voltage mod)..However it was more labor intensive and a bit more Risky from a results standpoint...Sooooo..To make a long story short...Without knowing it...When I purchased my X-800Pro..I was actually buying an X800XT Platnium Edition videocard...Thanks to some Really Crafty GURU Types...I found a simple Bios Flash was all it took to make this puppy Rock...Just my story..I havn't read ANY of this...Not sure it will apply to your card or not?? After ATI learned of the mod guys were doing on my card..They apperently started Hard Locking the pipes(you can still unlock them..just harder to do..No longer just a bios flash)...Here is the thread if it may be something that would interest you?? I just knew as soon as I saw R580 and "Disabled" that those Crafty GURU guys would be on it like Stink on $#!+...Not sure Your card will be unlockable or not!!Here is the Thread:http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=13191 Edit: OK..I couldn't resist..I had to read a couple of pages..I just really quick browsed...It looks like 95% of the X1900GT are NOT Un-lockable...It seems ATI is using a couple versions of the R580 core...The cards which are using the core known as the R580Pro are apparently the un-lockable versions...The More Prominent R580XL cores are Not un-lockable...They are Hardware Locked...OK...I Have to go to bed now...he he

Yeah the X1900GT is basically 3/4 of a X1900XT but a little slower. Performance wise it is a mixed bag vs. the 7900GT (it's competitor) because due to differing architechure some games the X1900GT fares very well and others the 7900GT absolutely reams the X900GT. In the end though I decided it was the one to get, when considering the price and the fact that it can do HDR + FSAA.I had read a little about the possiblity of soft-modding the GPU to release the disabled pipelines, but the info I read said that the pipes were being disabled by physically melting the fuses at the factory, meaning that it would be physically impossible to unlock them. I will give the thread a look-see when I get the chance.I do forsee one big problem with my new parts though- rumor has it that my power supply may or may not be up to snuff to run both of the new components at once. See I run a Shuttle ST20G5 SFF computer which has a 240W power supply in it. Yeah I know what you're thinking now, 240W is absolutely WAY too underpowered for even modest components nowadays. But in fact the Power Supplies used in Shuttle SFFs are of extremely high quality and people are running X2 4400+'s and 7900GTs etc. off of them no problems. I dare say they are among the best PSUs on the market, given that they have impressive performance despite low wattage specs combined with a very quiet operating volume. Putting a X2 4800 and X1900GT though might be too much for my 240W though. I guess we will see when the parts arrive- which hopefully will be fri or sat.If my PSU is too weak- I have 3 options:1) Run the X2 4800 with my 6600GT (because the new CPU will boost performance more than the new GPU). This is acceptable- although I will hit a limit as far as GPU power goes. I re-ran my AA tests putting the airplane in the middle of the ocean and adding about 10 overcast cloud layers in the sim (to give massive overdraw in cloud sprites). I then tried this same situation with both AA on and off, and found that I gained about 3-5 or so fps with AA off. Which is pretty significant when the sim was only running at 9fps! Anyways it might work in a bind, the 4800 with the 6600GT. Nevertheless I should be gaining a lot of performance with just the new CPU anyways though since my graphics settings are relatively low at 1024x768. In such a case I can either try to sell off the X1900GT or simply return it and eat the 15% restocking fee.2) I can purchase a 300W power supply for this SFF, and as far as I can tell it should slip in pretty easy only requiring 1 case mod- I need to dremel out the grille on the back of the case. It looks pretty easy and I might try this. Again this is one of those high-quality bulletproof Shuttle 300W PSUs so I am pretty confident that 300W would be enough.3) Sell off the X1900GT (or eat the restock fee) and go for the 7900GT. It's power draw is much less than the X1900GT and therefore might not overload my PSU. I worry though about noise issues with the card... every review I have seen dings the 7900GTs for being loud and whiny, however I have seen some 7900GTs with custom-designed coolers that look like they'd be much quieter than the reference design.RuahrcPS I just flashed my mobo BIOS about a week ago, according to the release notes, I should be able to go all the way to an FX60 now :)

Are you sure about even the 300w?? A quick look an I'm seeing 450w+??

Like I said the Shuttle PSUs can take a heavy load and not crack, unlike many cheapo 600+W PSUs that might be able to put out 600W for only a few moments, then give up under the load. I have a thread going on a different forum (one which focuses specifically on Shuttle SFFs) and there is a guy there who has the exact same setup as I will have- I don't think he is reporting any problems with all that hardware in his computer- he even has 2 hard drives in his computer, one of them a 10k raptor!Ruahrc

"Like I said the Shuttle PSUs can take a heavy load and not crack, unlike many cheapo 600+W PSUs that might be able to put out 600W for only a few moments, then give up under the load.""can take a heavy load" and *being Stable while running a heavy load" are slightly different..But Hey!! I definatly don't want to discourage you!!...I really hope this thing will run the videocard!! I suppose if someone else is running the same set-up then I need to quit worring about it..he heI look forward to hearing how it turn's out...I'm actually pretty excited!! I really wanna' hear how it handles your overhead!! I'm thinkin' it should run really really smooth...I hope so anyhow...Please report as you can..OK..FYI..Since your switching to ATI..I'm not sure if you know this yet or not?? I believe the latest ATI drivers require you install Microsoft .net framework(which I hate)...It's for the Catalyst Control Center....net Framework will automatically create a user account..which I delete..I feel it reduces overhead and helps boot times..You could reserch that if you wanted...I just personally have no use what so ever for .net framework..I sure wish it wasn't required..I would love to find a "work around" but havn't had time to investigate if there is any way to avoid .net framework?? I don't think there is..Someone suggested nVidia drivers may require the same in the future..Dang!! he heEdit: Actually..I had to have the ATI Catalyst Control Center because I was running CrossFire...Maybe now that I just have a single card?? Hummm..I sure would love to loose CCC...I was going to try to stick my X1900XTX in one of my systems this weekend..I may see if there is anyway to avoid that pesky CCC when I get to that point!! Or if you figure something out..Please let me know..Thanks.. So you ought to be getting your stuff soon?? Will you have it by the weekend?? or will it be next week??I took a look at the Shuttle...That thing is pretty neat...It's tiny..he he..I think I have seen a picture of one before..Pretty Kewl..Have Fun!!

No I totally sympethize with your concerns, Chuck. I have the very same concerns regarding the PSU as well. But like I said I have one report of the Shuttle PSU being able to run the components with no problems. He said after an hour of playing Battlefield 2 he still did not experience any heat/stability issues.It's difficult for me to convey to you the robustness of these Shuttle PSUs. When you compare them to the 1kw monsters you can buy for full size computers, the paltry 250 or 300W output can seem woefully low. However, there are countless reports of users in SFF-specific forums who are running little Shuttles packed full of goodies and the PSUs just keep on trucking. They are extremely robust and durable, and that's not all heresay either. With so many reports of successful setups running high-end hardware the Shuttle PSU has garnered itself quite a good track record.I know my components will be pushing it, but I am estimating that I have better than 50/50 that I will not encounter any problems at all. BTW, I think 130W for the GPU is a bit high. The X1900GT is probably pulling about 70-75W at full load.Re: the ATi drivers- yes a lot of people are wary of .net, however I guess I don't really have beef with it. It's not like the drivers themselves are running through .net, I think only the UI uses .net, hence the requirement. It's analogous to having the Java runtime installed on your computer. At any rate, I was just at the ATi site today pre-downloading the drivers I will need for the new card. I grabbed the complete package, as well as the separate ones too. Here's my question though: I'm thinking that it would be best to simply install the ATi Display Driver portion, and simply skip over the CCC installation. However, I don't know if I will be losing functionality by not installing CCC? What exactly does it do and what will I lose if I don't install it? I am not too familiar with ATi drivers as I have not ran an ATi card for a while now.Looking at the Fedex track for my package, the estimated delivery is supposed to be Monday (although it was shipped 2nd day delivery because it was only $3.99 and it left CA on Thursday... I thought Fedex delivered on Saturdays?). I am hoping it will come Saturday but something tells me that it won't get delivered till Monday. At any rate, I will be sure to let you know how the upgrade goes. At the moment I am not expecting any problems as I have been gradually preparing for the transfer while waiting for the package to arrive.Ruahrc