Hi there!I use MSFS2004 with a Logitech Force 3D Joystick, and I somehow have the feeling that either there's something wrong with that stick or with my hand...Anytime I'm flying the Cessna 172 and I try to keep the altitude constant, I keep rocking up and down all the time. When I switch to the virtual cockpit, I see the yoke moving constantly, even if I really concentrate on not moving the joystick (but only if I keep the stick centered). Is that due to my lack of skill? Am I trembling without noticing? Or did I just purchase the wrong joystick? BTW, no need to mention that force feedback is activated. I paid for it! :-)I'd really appreciate if anyone could help me! Thanks!Greetings, Holger

You won't like my reply, I fear, Holger, but IMHO the force feedback sticks are not worth the investment except for shoot-em-up style flying. For many years I have used a Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D without FF. Fantastic. Basic, but precise, and has as many buttons and switches as I need. A while ago I thought I would treat myself to the FF version of the same thing. Horrible. Felt like driving a sponge, with all precision gone. It vibrates alright, sure, but that gets pretty darn annoying too after a few minutes. The G force feels unrealistic and, again, feel for the flight dynamics suffers. What's more, many aircraft are not set up for FF. Thus flying with them feels different, and disappointing, as all you are left with is the wet sponge.I gave it a chance for a day or two and then put it back in the box. I've not used it since, I'm just keeping it as a spare.IMHO, if you want to fly accurately, avoid FF. If it's not too late to return it and swap it for a non-FF stick, I'd recommend that.Mark "Dark Moment" Beaumonthttp://www.swiremariners.com/newlogo.jpg

Hi Mark!Thank you very much for your advise. And, although it is of course a little bit unpleasant to learn that I wasted some 70 euros or so, it is indeed very helpful.>If it's not>too late to return it and swap it for a non-FF stick, I'd>recommend that.Unfortunately, at the place where I got it from, the customer's satifaction does not always have highest priority. And as it's been a while since I purchased it, I'm afraid I'll have to get rid of it somewhere else...Greetings,Holger

You shouldn't need to constantly hang on to the Yoke/Stick if you have your aircraft trimmed properly. The less input by the human hand the better she will fly ;-)

Hi Holger,I, too, have noticed this happening(with the Cessna in zero wind conditions), and am wondering what is causing it? I currently use a MS Sidewinder Pro without FF. I'll need to try this again to see if it is still there, but you are not alone, and it may not be related to Force Feedback.What aircraft are you flying by the way? If a piston or turbo-prop, what are your Realism Settings? I use 100% Realism Settings, and was wondering if this could be having the described kind of effect?BR,Frank

Hi Frank!>What aircraft are you flying by the way? If a piston or>turbo-prop, what are your Realism Settings? I use 100% Realism>Settings, and was wondering if this could be having the>described kind of effect?At this time, I concentrate on the Cessna 172, as it is used in the flying lessons, and it gives me the opportunity to decide more spontaneousely what to do next (I mean, for an absolute beginner, it's not funny to start a flight on a 737-800 while knowing that I'll hardly bring her down in one piece... and I had at least some successful landings with the 172. By the way, this explains why I use very low realism settings. But I have crashes detected. :-))Yesterday, I re-examined the problem, and I think it is due to a lack of precision when centering the stick. In the center position, it seems to be completely loose, and the slightest vibration causes movement of the joystick. The Logitech software offers a "spring" centering option while playing FF games. But also then the center position felt kind of loose...I'm afraid I really have to get a new one. And I need more exercise!Greetings,Holger

Hi Holger,Although I'm not a beginner, I'm still struggling to be a good pilot!In some, but not all cases, the larger aircraft can actually be easier to fly because of the automated flight controls available. Manual flying certainly takes a lot of concentration!I haven't tried with the Cessna since, so I can't say what might be causing this problem. All joysticks have a certain amount of play in the controls, but you should be able to resolve this issue by experimenting with the Null position settings in the Sensitivities panel in FS(In the menu system, it's Settings/Joystick/Sensitivities, but I can't remember what the top menu item is). By playing around with these settings, you can determine at what point movement in the joystick is translated into movement of the respect flight control. There's a separate setting for Ailerons, Elevators, and Rudder. This should remove accidental movements due to oversensitivity in the joystick.Hope this is of some help.BR,Frank

Thught I'd thow in my thoughts...I'm flying with a Logitech Extreme Wingman. It's worked fine up until a few months ago. My problem is that axis for the rudder control (twist handle function on the stick) is faulty. Looking at the input from this axis while calibrating, you can see it jumping all over the place. As a result, I've had to crank up the null zone and decrease the sensitivity otherwise I can't keep the AC straight on takeoff/Landing.I did a little research, and it appears (note: appears) that I;m not the only one who has had this problem. It seems some have had problems with the springs goin bad in Logitech sticks. Not all, but some. So, a new stick for me soon. :)Anyway, just adding to the possible reasons here...Shane.

Hi Frank!>All joysticks have a certain>amount of play in the controls, but you should be able to>resolve this issue by experimenting with the Null position>settings in the Sensitivities panel in FS(In the menu system,>it's Settings/Joystick/Sensitivities, but I can't remember>what the top menu item is).I tried this and it helped. Now I can even trim to horizontal flight without the risk of airsickness at fine weather! :7Thank you very much for your help!Greetings,Holger

Hi Shane!I admit that I still use automatic rudder coordination (or whatever the english name for this feature may be - I use the german version. But sometimes I think it would be advantageous to read the technical terms the way they're called in RL).As my landings still look like something very heavy falling down from somewhere high above in a more or less uncontrolled way, I think it's better to still leave it engaged for a while...So I don't really know if the z axis actually works. Maybe if i used it I'd throw that stick out of the window in a minute.Greetings,Holger

Another variable in all this is the potentiometers. They are rarely of good quality and thus are prone to spiking. The payare version of FSUIPC can be useful in dealing with pot spiking, but whether one increases the null zones in the sim or tweaks with FSUIPC the fact of the matter is the pots are still of questionable quality.My Cougar is modified with Hall Effects Sensors. I run no null zones in the X and Y axis, and the sensitivities are easily adjusted using the Cougar Control Panel. But that kind of precision (and longevity) isn't cheap... $50/axis.Greg

Hi Greg,Sounds interesting! How do the Hall Effects Sensors work?Thanks,Frank

Hi Frank,Info here: http://www.rheintacho.de/pdf/04Hall%20Sensors6-23_2001.pdfFor a joystick application the important thing to remember is that the sensors have no internal parts that touch each other. Pots have a wiper arm and carbon plate that rub against each other (by design). Dirt can accumulate between the two, and of course there is the matter of sloppy gimbals that will misallign the two. Add it all together and the pots in joysticks often lead a less than happy life. End result... spiking.Cheers,Greg

Thanks, Greg.Will read at leisure when I get home from work.Best Regards,Frank