"Is There a Pilot On Board?"

[Guest ZOTAN]

Reading all the replies, it got me to think if there are any 737NG simulators I could use in the US. If anyone knows of any, preferably in Southern California, let me know.Matt

[Guest Knikolaes]

If you have about 430 bucks see this -- http://www.b737.com :-) I am doing this in a few weeks . . . again :-)ChrisEDIT: To correct misspell in link.

[Guest Captain Vala]

I can hook you up with a Level D (either one 737NG 732 717 md83 md90 md11) for about $150 per hour! I was just there a few weeks ago, and as I said, I'm writing a review on it... I talked a little about it a few posts ago so take a look at that if you want...Chris, I really like your positive attitude about all of this stuff, specially since you're a pilot. I totally agree with pretty much all you said in your earlier post. In real flying, when you have an emergency, the first three things you should do are 1: fly the airplane 2: fly the airplane and 3: fly the airplane, then you go with the rest of your procedure. But as you said, when you do not have sufficient knowledge/experience with what you're dealing with, you're better off going with what you're best at. The computers and systems in a real 737 are highly precisely simulated in PMDG's 737 and dont require any extra "being there and doing it" experience to be done precise enough on real instruments, but the flying part... is a little different... or is at least something that's debatable. Now in my opinion, the less dangerous option would be letting the autopilot do it... at least its certified to do this... and I'm not. Do you soft of see what I mean?...And about the pilot making decision... you're 100% correct; pilot does make the final decision and he decides what's the safest. I will do that too, but that's if I'm flying a Cessna, because I've had sufficient training to be able to make right decisions in that airplane. But if we're dealing with a 737, we probably haven't had that sufficient training that we need to make the right decision, and there's a good possibility that we wont do that all that great on our first and at the same time most important landing of my life on a 737(at least I didn't on my first try)... so I'll again go back to see who's more likely to do it right; me? or the certified autoland? or lest think of it this way... who would do it safer? Of course autoland wont end up crashing if its set correctly, but I (the cessna pilot) have never landed the 737... why would I risk it?Chris, I feel like you're getting a little upset from what I said earlier. I really didnt mean to upset anybody or make'em offended.If you were ever around here (Los Angeles) or anywhere near, just let me know and we'll be glad to go flying, either GA or the 737NG sim that I know of, with you.Vala

[Guest Captain Vala]

Chris, I actually like this training facility you are talking about. Its just a little expensive... but let me see if I can save some money maybe we can do it together. I'm just right now working on saving some $2500 for my upcoming aerobatic course. Lets see if I'll get to do the 737 training too :)Vala

[Guest Knikolaes]

**smiles** OH nay, I am not upset. I just felt like maybe I was misunderstood and I decided to clarify. I am a comulsive typer and when i speak I usually do it in a lot of detail. How can I be upset at someone having their opinion or views? **smiles**We are all a community and I think this thread has done wonders for making some of us actually think about a possible if/then situation, which is perfect for us to discuss because of all of the new things we can all learn here.Now certain hot threads like a certain one over in the LDS forums with people complaining about non-release -- THAT one had me a bit heated **laughs** But this thread I think is a great learning experience wether someone is a simmer or real life student pilot, and I speak on that behalf from both sides.In fact I have every intent of hitting my flight Instructor with this scenereo just to see what he would say/do :-) It's not just a matter of "a couple of pilots passed out in an airliner" -- really what I see here is a reminder that anything can happen, and as long as we are thinking and discussing such things -- it better prepares us for expecting the unexpect, which is almost an utmost requirement for pilots :-)And as for the invite for going flying -- I would love that!!! I am a mere student now and have not even received my PPL yet. Finances have me bogged down at the moment. I am trying to get financing to go to Delta Connection Academy in Florida. Closest I have been to California and your area was in the Army when I was in NTC at Ft. Irwin. **brrrrrr** December -- 35 degree weather :-PInsofar as computers flying the airplane, I agree fully. That is why unless it is a long flight I try to do the flying by hand. I use the Flight Director to assist me. No real airline pilots dont do this for obvious reasons, but when you are sitting here in a flight simulator wanting to get better hand/eye coordination and practice your motor skills, it helps a lot. Doing this has actually helped with my flying lessons so far. My instructor commented on how well I coordinated myself in the airplane insofar as keeping stable control of the AC, and I really have hours of sitting here "hand flying" to thank for it.No I do not hand fly to be mocho -- I dont want to give that impression. I hand fly to better my skills and hone myself to literally -- as Spock from Star Trek would say -- "Be one with the Aircraft, Captain" -- of course skipping the part where Kirk loses his grip and falls 2,000 feet (those that saw that movie will know and understand this **laughs**).So, no, I am not upset -- just trying to pitch my views to an already greatly education thread that I think is drawing great response from all directions. And many thanks to the main author for that :-)<> In response to the reply that was posted while I was typing all this **chuckles** Aye it is a great program and for a bit more money can put a High Altitude Endorsement into a log book for you -- pilot or not -- seems almost wierd to see that in the midst of my Cessna logs - steep turns . . . steep turns . . . HA Endorsement LOL . . . . and GL on your Acrobatics!!!! Sounds like a blast! Hope it all goes well for you. Keep in touch via email if you want. Email's in my profile on here :-)

[Guest Knikolaes]

Spelling correction but it told me my "editing period expired" LOL -- I meant Aerobatics, not Acrobatics. Picturing a 3-ring circus, I must be.

[Guest Captain Vala]

Yep, glad to see it end in peace :-lol It just makes me feel...hmm.. a little nervous whenever I see one of these threads up and a lot of people saying I can totally do that... I keep thinking what if it happened, and then guys with this mind set will take over and might do something stupid (I'm not talking about you... its mostly non-pilots I'm referring to).Anyways, about the aerobatics; I've been thinking about that for a long time and I've been on one flight where I pulled +4 and -1 Gs! FUN :D . Its just in me and I have to do it; I couldn't even help not jerking on the rudder pedals on the 737, just for the fun of it, while my poor FO was trying to do a pattern... dont get me wrong, I'm not stupid enough to do that in real life !ok then, I'll drop you a line and for those of you guys new to this thread, please take my advise and dont hand fly the sucker given this situation :).Vala

[Guest Knikolaes]

Agreed. Specifically on my part it is a state of mind. "I can do this" as opposed to "I cant do this" is really on my end a way of keeping control and keeping cool. I guess I got that part from my prior occupations. Yet I never let safety out of my mind and keep to the "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" scenario -- that way I dont get cocky.

[Guest canyonblue737]

>Surely those level D sims>must be worth something ...>>Michael J.>WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB>Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2>http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpgIt is a tough thing to explain. The Level D sims undoubtably prepare you to safely fly the real aircraft, but for me at least... the sensitions of actual flight combined with weather dynamics I still do see properly simulated in the Level D add a degree of difference which is overcome naturally through experience and large amounts of practice in the Level D itself. Sorta like "wow it is different, but so familar that I can easily overcome those differences." Hard to explain... but certainly the reason why I have flown 3 different airline aircraft (including the 737) for the very first time with paying loads of passengers is thanks to the realism of the Level D simulators that provided me training.

[Guest canyonblue737]

>Agreed. Specifically on my part it is a state of mind. "I>can do this" as opposed to "I cant do this" is really on my>end a way of keeping control and keeping cool. I guess I got>that part from my prior occupations. Yet I never let safety>out of my mind and keep to the "hope for the best, prepare for>the worst" scenario -- that way I dont get cocky.let me also say for everyone wondering... just how incredible a product the PMDG sim is. while I still believe that the PMDG/MSFS2004 sim nor a few hours in a Level D sim (without other aviation experience) fail to prepare you to hand fly a Boeing, I must still say the PMDG sim sure does prepare you to fly the automation and learn the power settings. during my training at my current airline I used PMDG on a laptop and my sim partner and I "flew" the upcoming sim profiles in our hotel room prior to each days Level D sim training period. we did mainly to practice flows, checklists, and callouts as well as use the FMC and automation to fly SIDS/STARS and approaches. Since my carrier does not use autothrottles, even in the NG, it was also useful to practice power settings (which are amazing accurate in the sim, although a bit faster to spool than in real life) for various configurations etc. There is no doubt in my mind that PMDG gave me a leg up in learning the real airplane and that speaks volumes! i still think in the end though that due to the limitations of a single computer and a mointor/mouse/keyboard that PMDG ends up being a wonderful procedural trainer but isn't adequate at teaching someone to "fly."

[Guest ZOTAN]

Im going to have to try out one of those full motion simulators. I am also somehow distantly related to the CEO of Continental, and I am supposed to go meet him this summer.

[Guest Captain Vala]

I thought pilots do their entire type rating on the Level C-D sims... isn't that true?Vala

[Guest canyonblue737]

>I thought pilots do their entire type rating on the Level C-D>sims... isn't that true?>>Vala>you can with a Level D, not a C. that why in the last post I stated my first flight have always been with paying folks, because 100% of my training was in a Level D. needless to say on my PAs on those flights i didn't tell the people in back... hahahaha.

[victorlima01 4]

Nice long thread. I'm happy that some simmers came to their senses and understood that flying Precion Manuals is not the same as flying Boeings. I'm a private pilot and I actually think that flying the real thing is both easier and harder than Flightsim. Let me explain. The plane is easier to control and command because like someone else said here after some time you begin to wear the plane. You begin to treat it as someone as opposed to something and you begin to feel its needs and expectations, its tendencies and its short-range plans. You begin to fly ahead of the plane and counteract tendencies that oppose your flight regime. You end up becoming a human-being with wings to whom flying is natural and you're just there, enjoying yourself getting from A to B (or just getting back to A simply enjoying a casual stroll). That feeling that makes flying easier and more natural than simming is something FS9, PMDG and Level-D sims will never be able to give you. You end up not having a feel for the airplane, you just go thru the motions, you learn procedures and think that it might be fun in real life. Kinda like masturbation versus sex. However its also much harder because you are worrying about some very real and possibly hazardous things such as fuel, traffic, possible failure scenarios, enroute and destination weather, you passangers etc. Sometimes I have a hard time having fun flying or just checking out the view because I'm flying in a busy airspace where all these things start weighing. Your brain is more dispersed. No pause, no reset. You do not get second chances. If you crash, that's it. Pray you're in a good shape to leave the cockpit and that you don't get burned alive.So please all you fellow simmers do not believe you could manually land a heavy iron with 150 pax aboard and then taxi it to the gate because you know the procedures. Although I landed my light aircraft on my very first training flight it took some 10 hours to build up the confidence and the skills to do it alone. It's the same thing in Medicine (my line of work) You can read and know by heart a surgery textbook. You might have even witnessed a great surgeon operating right in forn of ou eyes. But if it's your very first time trying and you're unaided you'll kill the poor soul who entrusted his life upon you.So if Dave or Brad Marsh were sitting on the right seat and I was given one of those 14000 runways on winds calm CAVOK day with a fully functional airplane do you still think I'd risk manual landing? I'd certainly love to. But would I? Would you? Sorry for long post.Regards,Victorhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/800driver.jpg

[Guest Captain Vala]

> Kinda like masturbation versus sex. :-lol Dude, that's one of the funnies comparisons I've ever heard of in my life !!!Yep, as I said, "like always, there are non-pilots think they can totally do it, and there are pilots who say non-pilots cant !" And now there are more than enough reasons in this thread to convince simmers not to hand fly any heavy irons they ever come across.Victor, its nice hearing from another fellow real world pilot around here in this virtual world ;)Vala