Well, like always, there are non-pilots think they can totally do it, and there are pilots who say non-pilots cant !I'm a private pilot, and I've flown on PMDG and real 737sim. I will tell you guys that if you guys want to do it using autopilot, there's a chance, but manually... no WAY ! Sorry, but flying a 737, after all my hours on the GAs was still quite...different...and hard (to have it done precise). It takes quite some time for a GA pilot to fly the 737 smooth and safely, but for Flight simmers, I would suggest you go with the autopilot. Now seriously, flying the FS is very good; it teaches you all about the theories and dynamics, but flying the real thing is a lot different. Now I'm talking about Cessnas, dont even think about such big jets ! And for those who've only read about the way an airplane is flown, or seen pictures of cockpit with explanations in the books, I would say they're better off try to learn how to open the emergency exit, given this situation !:-jumpy ATTENTION TO EVEYONE INTERESTED :-jumpy I am working on a very detailed review on my flight on a 737BBJ sim and it will be posted in AVSIM.. hopefully soon. I will be giving you lots of info on the characteristics of the real 737, how to fly the real thing and its procedures, the differences between a little airplane with the 737, and a comparison between the PMDG's version and a real 737.Vala

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Nice subject!But i dont think you would be able to see all the variables as a flightsimmer.I am sure you can operate the MCP and find some of the buttons you need to switch.I work as a flightdispatcher for an airline , i am a serious FS junkie so have lots of hours, and i got 30 minutes of real time on our MD11 simulator. I took off , landed again , but i was all over the place wit the plane ( by the way i did it manualy so no autopilot at all. I was occilating over all axes , but landed safely.But the situation you portray is an actual hazardous mentality.You think you can handle it !!!! As a flight dispatcher i happend to know much of the variables that come with flying the plane, and alot of them actually have nothing to do with the flying it self , what about , en route notams , what about MEL items that reduce the autoland capabilities.Or worse even the planes performance. You did not get briefed about these things when you got on the plane, and you dont have any pilot to tell you what is wrong with the planeJust a small example:You are in mountainous terrain the GPWS goes off.What do you do ?Please answer me this one.??????

>real 737, how to fly the real thing and its procedures, the>differences between a little airplane with the 737, and a>comparison between the PMDG's version and a real 737.A similar report have already been written by Jonathan Sacks who flew on level D 737NG simulator in the United training facility in Denver while attending the Avsim annual event. It is available here on Avsim. Actually it comes in two parts - one written by Jonathan and another by his copilot Bill Grabowski. Anybody can read it - it is very well written and fairly comprehensive but the bottom line he is not even a private pilot but well experienced in using PMDG's 737NG and he was doing very well in flying and landing (manually) this sim.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

There is also the wind factor. If its too windy you can't autoland. I'd like to see these simmers try to crab a 737 while landing at 138kts. Much different feeling than on a sim. You don't feel the speed or inertia.

Hi Matt,Well, like some others, I too have "dreamed" of this but it is probably a little "silly flightsimmer's dream". However, I would definitely take the challenge since at least I am familiar enough with the main flight instruments and how to use them in the 737-700. But as others have pointed out, I would be also nervous and hopefully, ATC will clear all traffic in the airport area (at least around my projected approach course) so I don't have to worry about avoiding collisions with other jets.I think there are TWO main things which a flightsimmer will find very nerve-racking when flying in the real commercial aviation world: Air traffic and weather. Weather means poor visibility (less than 5 SM and I'd be nervous) and cross-winds.Having said all this, I think I would be confident enough to be guided to my approach and final vectors by ATC and may even attempt a manual landing (if they let me). If not, I would probably in all fairness, go with setting up the autopilot for an auto-land for the safety of the people on-board comes way before my getting a sense of satisfaction from my little "toy", right? The interesting thing is that, being a lover of manual control of aircraft, I've NEVER even wanted to do an auto-land with a 737. I have only done one auto-land and that was with the IFDG A320 with Eric Marciano's panel so I have a pretty fine-tuned sense of direction, distance judgement and runway alignment by sight and by ILS...John

If ever faced a prospect of performing such a landing I would request 1) VFR weather airport 2) minimal crosswind and 3) very long runway. Who knows depending on the fuel situation you might even make it to one of the 3 main Space Shuttle landing sites where runway length approaches 20000 ft. There is of course a chance that all 3 conditions could not be met on a given day but I would venture to say that one would have a good shot at meeting all 3 conditions on an "average" day in the US. Again, depending on the fuel situation I would ask for some time to practice and burn fuel at the same time to arrive with lowest possible weight.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

I could land the bird. Just make sure I have the weights and everything entered into the FMC, OR without the FMC have the charts handy and I'd get her down. I am that confident.As for the bikini team -- keep them -- I'm goth. I'll be happy going home and cuddling with my nice, shiny sword.Seriously, though, I really do think I'd get her down. I have sitting here in front of me a 2,000 page manual for this bird and I understand every bit of it. As long as I have good communication with ATC, I am good to go. Inform ATC of the situation, get the closest airport, get the vectors and don she comes.When you are a student pilot, you learn that really ALL flight dynamics and rules of the air are the same. The only thing that chjanges from bird to bird are the weights and speeds, but the principal is the same. You have the same insturments on a 737 that are crucial as you do as a student in a Cessna.Add to that a general idea of airliner mobility and control, and you have the makings for a successful attempt at reacting in such a situation. I hope that NEVER happens to me -- being on a plane with downed pilots, but if it were to happen -- I would definately make the effort. The main thing is stay calm, dont panic, stay confident and MOST IMPORTANTLY -- communicate with ATC!!!! In such a case, instructions and vectoring from ATC is the lifesaver.You dont need advanced FMC knowledge or anything, just take that yoke and follow directions, and if you are confident with the MCDU, use alt hold and hdg hold as necessary to smoothen out the transition to the ground.<<>> - to state that I would NOT use autoland during this incident. Once I have visual on the runway (and VASI if I am fortunate enough to have one) then that is the best bet to hand fly her down. Autoland is just a convenience for nice weather days. I never autoland even in the simulator. It should be mainly used just for CAT III conditions when winds definately permit.

Yes I agree with not using autoland. The posting about the real-life incident which occurred in the A340 by Vassilis is an example of how too much technology can be more dangerous, especially in-experienced flight-simmers, than beneficial. In the case of the A340, looks like the pilot had not flown enough on the Airbuses and was perhaps not fully used to its systems. Although, after having read some of the postings above, about how difficult it is to manually land a 737, I would probably opt to use autoland and in any case, it would not be up to me but to ATC. But, one note: I have spoken to a person with whom I work and he has never done any flight simulation or flying lessons and he was in a professional flight simulator with a pilot friend of his (who flew GA aircraft) and he landed without crashing but his pilot friend crashed... beginners luck perhaps but I don't feel it is that difficult. One point I must make about FS2004 versus real aicraft: I have read from several real-life pilots about how stable an airplane is in real life versus how over-sensitive the FS2004 controls are. So, in one sense, it may be less nerve-racking to fly a real 737 than the FS counterpart. I experience this too. A tiny movement of my yoke and especially the pedals (rudder) makes the plane react noticeably... and this after even reducing the rudder effectiveness and rudder trim effectiveness in the AIRCRAFT.CFG to around 50-75% or its original value (e.g. 0.50 instead of 1.00). I've seen postings from real-life Cessna 172 pilots who say that, even in moderately windy conditions, the plane feels stable and does not jerk around as it does in FS2004.Just some points I thought I'd make. Anyone's input is highly appreciated.John

Guys ! Chris, You should be a student pilot, so you would probably have more chance of getting it safely down on the ground. But all of you guys, YOU ARE JUST WAY OVER CONFIDENT !!! seriously, with this much confidence, you could seriously kill yourself and a whole lot of other poor people that trust you :( . That's just sad and stupid. If any of you guys are in such situation PLEASE NEVER try to do anything manually! No matter how hard pilots try to say, non-pilots just wont accept that flying real airplane is way different from the FS. JUST ACCEPT IT... and I'm not trying to make myself sound special just because I fly real ones. I used to tell pilots that I can fly, and they laughed at me... later I realized they were right. I flew with a fellow friend of mine in the 737 simulator, who had even flown in real Cessnas with me and attempted real landings before, and a person who makes the nicest landings in FS, but is still a non pilot... he had a hard time landing the real 737... he got all kinds of those warnings from glideslope to pull up and dont sink, then he would have blown the tires if the crash settings were enabled.. then he even almost went off the runway. Its hard stuff, and its serious... not a game with a restart button... I dont care if you've ever crashed in FS or not, but flying real airplanes IS DIFFERENT. But I have a feeling that the guy in the next post is again gonna say: I know 100% I can do it... and I'll even do it manually! I'm trying real hard not to hurt any of you guys, but its the truth, and it involves responsibility and a lot of liability...Vala

><<>> - to state that I would NOT use autoland during>this incident. Once I have visual on the runway (and VASI if>I am fortunate enough to have one) then that is the best bet>to hand fly her down. Autoland is just a convenience for nice>weather days. I never autoland even in the simulator. It>should be mainly used just for CAT III conditions when winds>definately permit.as someone who flies the real deal AND MSFS 2004 and am more than willing to admit how close they are... let me say this... if you ever were in such a situation and didn't use autoland you and the entire plane would be in a world of hurt. the best you would end up doing is a controlled crash (ala sioux city) on the airport property. the control feel of a real airplane in a dynamic situation is a world ahead of even a Level D sim, let alone PMDG. if you do not have real world experience in turbine aircraft or extensive training in a Level D the outcome of a hand flown landing in a Boeing or Airbus would be just devasting.a smart pilot is one who does everything they can to ensure a safe outcome... why would you fail to use the automation you know how to use so well (because PMDG does simulate that beautifully) only to leave yourself to demands beyond any you have ever seen?a fun conversation of course... but it just won't happen in real life thank god.

Thank you Dave ! Now if you guys dont want to believe me... then listen to Dave! He probably knows his stuff pretty well ;).ValaEdit: Typo

>Well, like always, there are non-pilots think they can>totally do it, and there are pilots who say non-pilots cant !>>I'm a private pilot, and I've flown on PMDG and real 737sim. >I will tell you guys that if you guys want to do it using>autopilot, there's a chance, but manually... no WAY ! Sorry,>but flying a 737, after all my hours on the GAs was still>quite...different...and hard (to have it done precise). It>takes quite some time for a GA pilot to fly the 737 smooth and>safely, but for Flight simmers, I would suggest you go with>the autopilot. Now seriously, flying the FS is very good; it>teaches you all about the theories and dynamics, but flying>the real thing is a lot different. Now I'm talking about>Cessnas, dont even think about such big jets ! And for those>who've only read about the way an airplane is flown, or seen>pictures of cockpit with explanations in the books, I would>say they're better off try to learn how to open the emergency>exit, given this situation !also i have heard the usual "a Level D is just like the real airplane and i landed my 30 minute ride in the Level D!"well... sorta. i have hundreds of hours in Level D sims in IMHO they teach you procedures second to none. the power settings, the position of the switches, the performance to expect from various settings of power and pitch etc. but i still feel the Level D is nowhere near the real plane. for example i could easily land the Level D 737 my first time out in the sim (i was an experienced regional pilot but it was my first large Boeing type jet) but my first approach in the real airplane (with people in back) was SO much more a handful. it turned out fine of course but i was operating at a very, very high level of concentration (pretty close to 80-90% of what i could handle, being near task saturation in some gusty winds), many things in feel were different then the sim, and the roundout/flare felt quite different (as did the hard landing, something i hadn't done in the sim, hahahaha). and that was as a pilot who had thousands of hours in turbine regional aircraft! of course soon with more experience now that feeling is gone and hand flown lands are a joy in the 37 but it just proves, sims are great but nothing compared to the real deal...

>the control feel of a real airplane in a dynamic situation is a >world ahead of even a Level D sim, let alone PMDG. Having zero 'heavy turbine' time, only a miserable PPL-IFR, to the above I can only recall my trip aboard a 747-400 Cathay Pacific in 1992 between LAX and Hongkong. These were the times that when politely asked captain could let you into the flight deck. So I asked and was admitted with open arms, got seated in the jump seat and a long-legged stewardess was even periodically serving me non-alcoholic beverages. I spent a good 45 minutes chatting with the two very young looking pilots who started their career with the BA. I remember we were hugging the coast of Alaska at that time. To make the long story short the conversation quickly settled on aviation career and how those two 'youngsters' found themeselves behind the controls of a 744. They said that BA at one point found themselves with not enough pilots (or too many old pilots) and they signed a contract that propelled them quickly (through intensive training) from basic PPL to the flight deck of a 744. And here comes the shocker - what was the last REAL airplane they piloted before the 747 and the answer practically blew me away - Piper Seneca II. Everything in between was done on Level D sims. Surely those level D sims must be worth something ...Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

I think I was misunderstood. The issue I stated about autoland is it does not handle winds -- at all -- even the PMDG sim is like this. Not once in a crosswind have I attempted an autoland and came down even close to the center crossline. Many VASIs have sacrificed themselves to my experimenting with this. I also talked to other real pilots, and I am sure that even Dave would agree with me that most airlines prefer their pilots to hand fly the approach from the point they get close to landing. Usually most pilots will disarm the AP after capturing the glideslope and becoming stabalized. In fact there are a couple of airlines here locally that state you cant NOT use autoland unless you have to under CAT III conditions.PLEASE dont get me wrong -- I dont believe there even IS a right or wrong here. Really -- it depends on the pilot. "confidence" is a wierd word to use. I prefer I guess, and I should have made this clear in my prior post, is that I would do my best to have self confidence and CALM in handling the situation -- ergo not panicing.Confidence of the wrong type CAN be a killer -- and that does not matter WHAT size aircraft it is. Take the pilots that crashed here in Pueblo where I live -- the Circuit City guys -- the media has everythign all wrong on that situation and everyone got the wrong impression -- they tried blaming it on aircraft, fuel, etc . . . this and that . . . trying to make the pilots look innocent.This is where we are reminded that the Pilot in Command is the SOUL person responsible for the safety of that aircraft. He is the final ball between the decision of fly or dont fly. In this case -- those pilots of that business jet here in Pueblo did not plan properly, they did not properly manage their fuel, and as a result ran OUT of fuel as they were approaching 8L here in Pueblo.THAT kind of confidence can be VERY dangerous, so I fully agree with the statements in reply to my post on that. This is basicly a repost of my earlier words to state that I am aware of what kinds of confidence there are. Would I be scared to death something will go wrong if that situation ever happened to me? HECK YEAH!!!!! I'd be scared to death. HOWEVER . . would I lock up and panic?I actually dont think so -- but then again I have always had a lot of "keep calm" situations happen to me. I went through the Army, and then 6 years of EMS and law enforcement, so having people's lives at stake is not a new thing to me. I am NOT saying that is something to be proud of. No matter WHAT industry you work in, your best hope is that the situation does NOT arise and that people's lives are NOT in danger. I was the type of EMT that thought the world was in it's better states when i was NOT needed. because if I was not needed that meant no one was getting hurt.A lot of people in public safety have crazy stories to tell about "eventful" nights. The nights I like to remember are the nights when nothing happened. Because those times reminded me that at least for a night, people out there were being safe and responsible.The Autoland decision, as I stated from above, really is one for the pilot and the pilot alone, no matter what the experience. It is my personal experience with taking out VASIs due to crosswind landings in the 737 and 767 using autoland that makes me edgy with it. I also do not want to be too dependent on a computer landing the aircraft for me -- a pilot is a pilot.Also for those out there that fly airliners AND GA aircraft, I am sure you will agree that the principals are still the same. In ANY situation what are the first things that come back to you? Thrust=Drag. Weight=Lift and so on. Weights, speeds, weather, all of that starts to fall into place almost subconsciously IF you are wise enough to have paid attention during your whole process of learning to fly.BOTH in the Sim world AND real world we are ALL students. The best pilot is the one ALWAYS striving to learn, because no matter how long you fly -- both in the sim and the real deal -- you always learn something new. I fly about 8 hours a day and EVERY day I learn something new -- or I at least try to.Am I disagreeing here? No. All of the replies toward the end of this thread are correct. Dave is correct. Mike is correct. And so on. I especially agree with Tim on his points as well. Very well spoken. I have no room to disagree here. The MAIN thing is I believe the question should not be "could you get the plane down" as opposed to the question of "how would you do it?" There are a lot of right ways and a lot of wrong ways.I see some of the posts here talk in the lines of "if you are not a real pilot you couldnt possibly do it". To me that is a bit negative. I always try to look at the positive. You never know. Maybe it'll happen, maybe it wont. Really this is one of those situations that I think no two people would think of the exact same way -- like a fingerprint -- no two are exactly the same. It's a matter of "how would I handle this?" and it goes beyond flipping switches. It would go into emotional. Also the person who steps up and takes those controls would probably be a soul of leadership and a type of individual that is trained in a "take charge" environment.Also one last thing to remember -- this is a forum thread, thus all replies here, like my own, are mere speculation. It's like death -- you never REALLY know until it really happens.K my fingers are officially sore now. **smiles** Time to go take an ATR to Prague :-)