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Guest WorkingStiff

What is your definition of "hand fly?"

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Hey Stiff.The main factor in how much I hand fly is whether or not I am dealing with a VATSIM text controller or a VATSIM voice controller...the latter allows for a much more realistic flight.In general, with voice ATC, I fly the FD from takeoff up tio about 5000 or when I am on course depending on weather and my mood.Top of descent, I will catch VNAV before it begins the descent and use V/S to start the descent, then when I catch up with the path, back to VNAV. This procedure really smooths out VNAV T/D nosedive which spills the PAX gin and tonics. At or about 10,000 on the way down, I will disengage A/P but leave the autohrottle on unless the winds are nasty. Flying with the FD as reference until about 3-400 feet, I shut off the A/T then flare and land.That's it, nothing too complicated for me - VATSIM text control really limits what you can do with hand flying and I on the A/P from wheels up to wheels down generally...text control is something I avoid if possible. Hopefully VATSIM will revoke it's voice test requirement for new controllers instead of encouraging newbies to start on text only...I could go on here, I will shut up now.Rob.

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Hey Stiffy!!!I do not fly VATSIM...so I handfly the sid up to 10000 feet. Then engage VNAV and LNAV. I like to handfly from 10000 feet to touchdown! I will use AT as much as possible on climb and descent if it is working well on the particular aircraft package.Hope all is well!Tony

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You're missing out not using VATSIM. It can really bring the whole sim together with the real-time ATC (voice of course ;-) ) If you want to test, try a flight in BOS or LAX - generally busy and senior ATC providers.IMHORob.

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For me the definition is A/T and A/P off. Every other flight I fly without FD also below 10,000 ft to keep my instrument scan. Obviously there is not one 767 operator that flies this way but since the 767 is such a great instrument platform I just can't resist. When I fly with failures engaged I use normal procedures (i.e. A/P,FD, A/T, etc...)Pedro

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Guest WorkingStiff

Rob, thanks for your response. I was simply curious as to what folks thought about the amount of automation involved in "hand flying."Regarding VATSIM, I agree with you...it does get very hectic sometimes though. Last Sunday I overheard a rant by one of the controllers at Oakland; he was saying that there were so many aircraft in his sector and most of the pilots had no idea what they were doing. I guess that included me.... :-lol

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Guest WorkingStiff

OK Pedro and Rob, Why the 10,000 ft limit?And if I fly a pattern, commanding turns through heading select; does that qualify as hand flying?The reason I'm asking is that I had a discussion with someone and he suggested that the 767 PIC aircraft is so difficult to control that at minimum the use of the MCP is required for altitude and heading control.

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I find hand flying a joy in the PIC, maybe your freind needs some more hours ;-) Flying the FD helps things for me.I live for hectic at VATSIM, as long as they are not hectic on the keyboard ;-)Rob

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Guest WorkingStiff

Don't we all need more time....BTW, SBHost isn't working well for me under Windows XP so I'm back to tabbing between screens to use Squawkbox.

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Switching with alt-tab was no good for me either. No luck using Windowed mode with XP = eeek! That would be a big reason not to use XP for me, or I would get a second PC and do the wide FS thing if I had the money.See ya up there.Rob.

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No debris...except for the 'accidental' toilet ice discharge on the Fleet Centre.Vive Les Habitants.Go Koivu!

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At 10,000 ft you turn the lights OFF, check press etc.. and accelerate to the climb speed then that's a good time to turn on the A/P. I actually do it after I have accelerated to climb speed 300 kts...On the descent you will slow down to 250 kts by 10,000 ft so that's another good point to go manual back again. Of course I you want to practice using the A/P you can leave it on until final. I happen to enjoy flying the aircraft a lot more than turning knobs. After all that's why I became a pilot not to push buttons, that's boring to me. Pedro

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"And if I fly a pattern, commanding turns through heading select; does that qualify as hand flying?"Turning knobs is NOT hand flying. Hand flying is having your hands on the yoke and throttle and control the aircraft "manually". Handflying is also what you would do if you ran out of fuel. "The reason I'm asking is that I had a discussion with someone and he suggested that the 767 PIC aircraft is so difficult to control that at minimum the use of the MCP is required for altitude and heading control. "Who said that? I can fly completely manually with everything oFF down to 1800 RVR without a problem as good or better than the autopilot. And I am not Chuck Yeager, it's just what a regular competent pilot should be able to do. 767 PIC is the best handling so far in Fs2002 (except for the rudder problem). Whoever said that is obviously not a pilot, or at least not a good one. Of course assuming that person has a fast enough computer and good enough hardware like yoke pedals etc... The 767 PIC feels like a real airlpane given the right equipment. Hey Stiffy, BTW it seems from your question that you haven't done much manual flying is that correct? If you ever want we could set up multiplayer and go around the pattern. If you are having problems it could be your equipment, your technique, are you a pilot? Flying instrument is like playing any sport or playing an instrument, you need to learn the technique and then practice and practice and practice. Pedro

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Guest WorkingStiff

Pedro, I'm having an ongoing e-mail conversation with someone who is relatively new to 767 PIC; he reads the forum but he's not yet confident enough to post.He saw the term "hand fly" used here and asked me what it meant. When I explained he said he thought the aircraft was too difficult to control without resorting to the MCP at least.Neither of us are pilots (unless you count a few hours of flight lessons I took some time ago), but I've done a lot of manual flying with 767 PIC; some would even argue I do too much. He, on the other hand, is new to the product.Pedro, you raise an interesting point about the proper equipment and the ability to fly 767 PIC. Owning a yoke and pedals is a considerable advantage as opposed to some crappy joystick. You couldn't realistically practice V1 cuts, for example, with just a joystick.

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Handfly for me is either A/P, and A/T off, or sometimes with just A/P off.My typical scenario is:A/T, FD, ON - upto TOC.Cruise is A/T, A/P LNAV/VNAV (and 4X :-) I usually do very short flights anyway)A/T and A/P off at TOD, handfly using VNAV/LNAV or FL CH/LNAV to APP as FD cues. To make it fun - sometimes rawdata+no map mode+DME Arc and automatics off to touchdown.FS Meteo (no time for VATSIM flights - work/family/life intrudes)I am by no means a RW pilot (disregarding some long ago training in Cessna 172s) and I find PIC to be very easy to handfly.Cheers

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Guest bisinchi

Handfly would be A/P off, A/T off.I usually handfly up to FL100 and from FL100 too. This may not be very realistic, but it more fun, besides, the plane is such a joy to control, I would really be missing if I didn't do some hand flying!!Another reason is, you spend 90% of the flight with VNAV/LNAV on, so a bit of manual flying makes up for a nice start/end of a flight!!As for the limit to FL100, it's just that I find it easier to accelerate using FL change then!! Personal taste,Francois

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Well Stiffy the 10000 foot rule is .... Eric E. posted his way of doing things! Thats why! Its an old post many moons. Probably after the release of PIC767. He also stated that the he switched off AT as they were to slow in reacting and then would over thrust and under thrust. Take careTony

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Hey Stiffy,I get your point. Unfortunately I can not do V1 cuts on FS2002 either with 767 PIC. The rudder jumps while the YD is OFF but it needs to be off so that you have control. That makes it impossible to do a V1 but right. I can do it by being all over the place. On fs2000 the V1 cut use to work like on a simulator, it was beautiful!. I would love to do a session where a bunch a PIC drivers go out and do formation flying for a picture, what do you think?. I hope that Wade takes a look at the rudder issue. The V1 cuts are way to much fun to miss. Pedro

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I heard the old school Lufthansa cap'ns used to make the F/O's hand fly all the way to cruise alt then all the way from T/D down to zero...every flight...eeekRob.

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Guest Lenny Zaman

For me handfly now, is A/T on and A/P off, FD oni don't handfly alot lately because i'm doing a world tour for IVAO and once i got it up to cruise level, i start up my WORD and start working that HELLISH esthetics assignment. But if i have time to relax(even tho i'm having vacation, here vacation is nothing but making assignments the teachers gave you the last day befor ethe holliday with a deadline like the first week after the vacation, so i don't call it vacation anymore)But if i handfly it, it goes smooth, tho need to learn some basic principles of flight like propper thrust control(manual that is) as i'm having a hard time with it, maybe any suggestions?Thanks

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Name the time and place, I am sure you will get a good turn out of PIC-addicts.Did I see you controlling on VATSIM the other day?Rob.

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Guest WorkingStiff

Wow...I didn't expect this many responses.I noticed though that there are divergent opinions about what "hand flying" is. Some respondents think that the use of autothrottle still qualifies as handflying while others, notably Pedro, use neither autopilot nor autothrottle.I suppose that the degree to which hand flying is practiced is contingent on the equipment available....having a stand-alone throttle quadrant, yoke and pedals certainly is a big advantage.You can understand how a casual 767 PIC user would be confused.

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I am not a controller but I was flying in the LA Area. Have you guys ever tried the gaming zone. That might be a good place to start so we can fly formation. Pedro

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