Approach procedure - landing configuration

[Guest]

Where is the right point in the approach to set the landingconfiguration? - precision approachI've found out in some manuals that when GS comes alive beforedescent the PF calls for gear and flaps 30 and the landing speed isset (Vref 30 + 5).But some of my friends say this is not the way of working in reallive. They say that the B767 normaly fly with at least 160kts to4nm to touch down and only then slow down to landing speed - thatassumes that the flaps also have to be set to 30 only at this point.Please - is there a real pilot who can clarify this for me?happy landings,Rainer MeiselAustrian Virtual Airlineshttp://www.aua.com/virtual

[Guest]

Hi Rainer,Well, you are both sort of right. Keeping up 180 to 5, or 160 to 4, is a procedure used at many major airports to speed up the approaches. If every aircraft would slow to Vapp+5 10 miles out, the Air Traffic Controllers would not be able to land the number of aircraft they need to. This would entail long holdings and subsequent delays.As you descent on the glideslope, set flaps for 160 or 180 kts with gear extended. As you cross the 4 or 5 nm to final mark, extend flaps to final landing position and slow the aircraft down to Vapp+5. The aim is to be fully established (On glide and localiser, flap and speed set, engines spooled up) when passing through 1.000ft AGL. Many airlies have written into their SOPs, that if not fully established when passing 1.000ft AGL a missed approach must be initialized. This should not be confused with decision altitude. But, if you're not established at 1.000ft, then abort the approach and go around for another try.I have found that flying such an approach manually normally yields a better result than relying on the autoflight to do the job. This is on the simulator mind you, in real life it's actually much easier to let the autoflight systems handle it.Finally, for Cat III approaches the rules change somewhat. It is quite normal for a Cat III approaching aircraft to be fully establised at anywhere up to 2500ft AGL.Happy landings

[Guest Martin]

Vapp+5?Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

[Guest CYOW_pilot]

Rainer,For one company operating 767s here in Canada the recommended procedure is to select flap 1 approaching the loc, flap 5 established on the loc, fly at flap 5 (down the G/P usually by then) to about 2nm before the FAF, then select gear down and flap 20, before landing check. Select landing flap (normally flap 25 unless runway/conditions/airmanship dictate the use of flap 30)early enough to be stabilized in the landing config by 1000 agl.This technique will also work nicely to keep you in the 160kt to 170kt speed range to cross the FAF which seems to be the normal request at many of the busy airports, here in N America at least.For Martin,vapp+5?More correctly Vref+5. The +5 is the minimum wind correction addition to be carried to the flare. The wind correct is 100% of the gust factor and 50% of the HW (but most people just use the wind speed) component to a max of 20 knots addition. If the winds are calm the minimum Boeing recommended addition is still 5 knots.For example, Wind 220 deg at 12 Gusting to 20.8 knot gust (full gust) + 6 knots (1/2 HW)= approach speed addition of 14 knots. If Vref is 130 knots then the target speed would be 144 knots. The gust correction is kept to touchdown and the wind correction is bled off in the flare.Kevin in CYOW.

[ACA857 5]

An excellent post IMHO Kevin...a solid explanation of the basic procedures for a successful approach ;-)It also clears up a bit of a flap - pun intended - between myself and some others on the forum about the common use of flap 25 rather than flap 30 ref speeds - conditions pending of course. Seems flap 30 is the popular choice for many American carriers so I am told...but I have seen flap 25 landings mostly in my Canadian travels.Now I know I was not having a repeating hallucination, it is common for flap 25.Thanks,Rob.

[Guest]

Rainer,I posted the similar request a long time ago when PIC first came out and after I had a few months of flying the 767 under my belt. I received a response from Eric Ernst on how he basically flies the aircraft. Enjoy,Lawrie Lawrie MannVatsim Callsign: TELCO11) Reaching the terminal area, and within 20 miles of the airport, slow to 180 and extend flaps to 5 on speed.2) As soon as the Glide slope comes alive, select gear down and flaps flaps 20. Set the speed to Vref30+20 and slow down gradually.3) At glide slope intercept, select flaps 25 and set the speed to Vapp+10 (if lower than Vref30+20).4) Prior to 1000 feet above the ground, select flaps 30 and set the speed to Vapp.This is the most basic and simple way to fly an approach. It can be altered depending on the approach situation. For example, if you intercept the glide slope from a very high altitude, then delay the selection of gear and flaps until around 2500 feet above the ground.

[Guest Martin]

"More correctly Vref+5."Of course. :-)"(but most people just use the wind speed)"Is this in real life you mean?BTW, there are also other ways of determining Vapp, like "minimum ground speed", but it also comes down to never going slower than Vref+5. (And the formula for min GS is a little more complicated - the wind + half gust is much easier I think.)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

[Guest CYOW_pilot]

ACA856,Thanks for the compliment. I always smile to myself when I see your handle because as a boy growing up and listening to my radio shack airwaves radio I would on occasion hear AC856 on Montreal or Toronto Centre getting cleared direct Chalevoix or somewhere further east on its way to Heathrow and for some reason that flight always held a special place in my memories. I hoped someday to be flying that flight but it seems AC and I cannot get together on that. I have twice been offered a pilot course with them but for various reasons have not been able to take them up on their offer. I had a chance to ride jumpseat on that flight many years ago when they were using a 747-200 (or maybe a 100, not sure). I believe it is usually an A330 these days.Anyway, thanks again for the kind words.Kevin in CYOW.

[ACA857 5]

I still listen to my Radio Shack - Airwaves brand radio ;-) ...17 years I have had it and it works like a charm. I date myself.Yep, 856 is usually an A330 in the peak summer months (sad), but I do see the B744's back in the 'shoulder' seasons on occasion. First time I flew on ACA856 in 1983, it was on C-FTOC ...a 747-100 I believe. A trip to the flight deck on that one lasted about 3 hours. For a while they used L1011's for 856...that was a treat as well. I was born in UK and there until 1982, Canada since then...so 856 takes me "home" - special to me too.Bye for now,Rob.

[Guest]

Gentleman, thank you all for your replies!Specially for the procedures for theairport speed restriction.happy landings,Rainer MeiselAustrian Virtual Airlineshttp://www.aua.com/virtual

[Guest Murf]

>For one company operating 767s here in Canada the >recommended procedure is to select flap 1 approaching the >loc, flap 5 established on the loc, fly at flap 5 (down the >G/P usually by then) to about 2nm before the FAF, then >select gear down and flap 20, before landing check. Select >landing flap (normally flap 25 unless >runway/conditions/airmanship dictate the use of flap >30)early enough to be stabilized in the landing config by >1000 agl. I don't want to sound dumb here, but where is the FAF located? Is it usually a certain distance from the runway? In reading a chart for a runway where is FAF identified?For example can someone tell me where the FAF is indicated on this chart...http://avsim.com/hangar/satco/chicago/page..._iap/ILS32L.htmThanks for the help!

[Guest ielchitz]

>For example can someone tell me where the FAF is indicated >on this chart... Murf,I only know what I have read and others have taught me, so hopefully if this is bad info someone will correct me.The Final Approach Fix (FAF) for the Chicago/O'Hare ILS 32L approach is JOCKY. Jocky can also be identified as the Outer Marker (OM), or 7.6 DME on the Localier (I-RVG).Notice on the VERTICAL Profile it has an "X" on it right over JOCKY, that identifies the Final Approach Fix.The next "fix" on the chart is the Middle Marker (MM) , which is your Missed Approach Point (MAP) - or you could just time it from the FAF to the MAP by using the speed chart at bottom.It's amazing how much information they pack onto those Plates. I found a great reference for reading them as well as flying all of the Instrument Procedures at the following website which was put together by a gentleman named Hal Stoen (who I "had" been meaning to email for some time now to say thank you - and thanks to this being in my brain I just did ).Highly recommended.http://stoenworks.com--> Click on "Aviation, Flight Simulators"--> Scroll to the bottom and look for the heading "Instrument Flying".Great tutorials on VOR, VOR/DME, NDB, LOC, DME Arcs, Crosswind Landings, and LOC/BC approaches.Hope that helps.Ian Elchitz CYWG

[Guest Murf]

Ian,You are a wealth of information, as always. Thank-you!That is an excellent link. Lots of good reading there.

[BillVC303 1]

>Ian,>>You are a wealth of information, as always. Thank-you!>>That is an excellent link. Lots of good reading there.>>>Murf like to kiss butt doesn't he?