How do you guys slow to meet the 250k speed restriction at 10,000'? I'm coming down from the flight levels around 2000' per minute and can't seem to get slowed to 250k, even with speed brakes. Of course, I can adjust my rate of descent near the 10,000' call, but from riding the 767 in real life, I don't believe that's the procedure. The "feel" I get in real life is that they simply power back to idle and that's enough to slow down.How are you guys doing it? :-)

Well CDrier, from my experience the best way to get the B767 down from the cruising altitudes is by using the VNAV function of the FMC. -==Warning, techno talk incoming==-(Simple check for non FMC descent at the bottom)For an extensive description of the inner workings of the FMC I would recommend checking the documents on the Wilco site or your PIC-CD...but heres a very short version of what it will eventaully tell you...The FMC can control both your Lateral path, Vertical Path and Speed through use of the LNAV and VNAV MCP buttons. For this particular situation, you are looking to automate VNAV Speed which requires you to have your route (RTE) selected (it helps alot to have your arrival all setup (DEP/ARR) aswell, but it can be done without this). If you have your arrival all setup, the FMC will calculate a Top of Descent point (T/D) which allows for a more or less constant descent at idle thrust. The T/D will be indicated by a small green circle along your route on the Map page of the EHSI (Lower screen). As you approach the little green circle, a message will popup on the CDU (FMS Screen) reminding you to set your altitude lower. Once you get the message, all you have to do is set a lower altitude in the MCP altitude window and the aircraft will start its own descent on the VNAV profile.Now, what does that have to do with your question? Well, simply, the FMC takes the speed restriction into account and will slow the aircraft before reaching 10000ft automatically. BUT, you have to be sure that the restriction is set in your VNAV Descent page under...you guessed it, SPD RESTR (or SPD Trans as is set by default). What you should see there is 250/10000 meaning you are restricting the descent to 250kts below 10000 which was the whole idea...easy hu :9 Again though, the official documents are a great tool for learning the FMC and the Tutorial flights are perfect for learning to make flying the B767 routine and realistic which is the ultimate goal, isnt it? Hope some of that helped anyway....Safe Skies!-JackelbBtw, Im almost positive that real crews use the VNAV descent profile almost exclusivly unless ATC assigns a specific Rate of Descent (never actually heard one myself). So as such, I believe there is a tiny level off before reaching 10000 to allow for airspeed bleedoff. Simple Check: Maybe the autothrottle is fighting the spoilers not allowing you to slow below your MCP selected speed?

I don't know how it is in the real world...I often add an extra waypoint before a speed restriction. For example, on the ORW arrival into Boston, you generally have to cross PVD at 250/11000. I will add a waypoint before it, PVD/-5 (5nm before PVD along the track) and set it to 250/11000. This gives me a level 5nm section that helps the deceleration. Otherwise, VNAV can have trouble slowing down as PIC is slippery.Lee Hetherington (KBED)

CDreier, if your are flying correctly with the fmc and you are in vnav mode, and you have started the vnav descent(Reached the T/D). A method I use is speed intervention. As you have noticed the 767 does't slow easily, and I dont like to use the speedbrakes. Simply click on the speed knob , airspeed will come up in the speed window that is being used for the vnav descent , now dial in a lower speed(250k for example) ,you will still maintain the vnav decscent only now at a slower speed, I can always acheive 250k by 10k. Another side benefit of this is it causes the aircraft to actually descend at idle like the real aircraft. Please do read the manuals, once you figure all of this out you will see how a real airline pilot would fly from point to point. Its that good!

Everything mentioned here you should do. Check your fuel load out. If you're landing with more than 50,000 lbs of fuel on board, you're coming in a bit heavy and you descent path will have to be much shallower in order to keep your airspeed in check.The induced drag in most FS models is excessively high. The real 767 is a difficult beast to slow down - even in the proper landing configuration, so give yourself some extra room if you descend using a method other than VNAV.Cheers,J

In real life you will be at idle from top of descent to about 1500ft (in an ideal world anyway), so there is no way to reduce power anymore to slow down!The way its done is by reducing the rate of descent when approaching 10000ft, to reduce the speed. You can let VNAV work this out itself, or use v/s and do it yourself.A normal rate of descent at that altitude at say 300kts (normal descent speed), will be around 2000ft/min, so at about 11000ft use v/s and set a rate of descent of -500ft/min, you should be at 250kts at around 10000ft. Remember once you approach 250kts to change back to FL CH, or the thrust will come up to maintain the -500ft/min.

HPSOV,Could the speed intervention described a bit earlier here do the trick? I mean, is it OK to use it IRL as well ?Tero

If during a VNAV descent at idle thrust speed intervention is used to reduce the speed NOTHING WILL HAPPEN. After about a minute the aircraft will give up and revert to VNAV SPD and depart the path. PIC cheats a little bit by not flying idle descents in VNAV PTH, so it can reduce thrust to reduce towards the requested speed. The real aeroplane is not so forgiving! (Remember the goal is an idle descent)Another method is to enter 250kts in the VNAV Descent page, the aircraft will recalculate the path at 250kts.The best way is, as described, allow the decelleration calculated by the VNAV system, that will enter a 500fpm descent to arrive at 10,000 feet at 250kts. Decelleration will start at the first green 'doughnut' and end at the second. If the rate of descent is less than 500fpm the aircraft will slow down too quickly, requiring thrust to maintain 250kts. If it is above 500fpm speedbrake will be required to slow to 250kts (all this is applicable to the real aircraft, in PIC the lack of an pure idle descent means the VNAV will normally nail the decelleration).Cheers!

This is correct.When in VNAV PATH the aircraft will follow the PATH, regardless of what the speed is doing (unless an overspeed/stall develops).You can be doing 330kts on descent and speed intervene to 200kts, absolutely nothing will happen as the aircraft will follow the path, which was calculated to maintain 330kts.If the actual winds experienced during descent are not as forecast the path calculated will be incorrect, and we often have to do 'direct to' the active waypoint during descent, so the FMC will recalculate the path, based on current winds. (This presents a huge problem in domestic operations around Australia, where winds at top of descent are generally 150kts+, incredibly easy to overspeed the aircraft as it follows the path and ignores increasing headwinds).In PIC VNAV does not infact use idle, but cheats a little, which may well mean that speed intervene will work (as a side note speed intervene DOES work on the 744, and our newest Pegasus FMC 767, although not on our other 2 pegasus 767's...).

HiThanks for the additional info guys!Do you have any idea as to why PIC indeed does cheat in VNAV path during a descent ?HPSOV, you being an IRL pilot, how would YOU use PICs systems to achieve a realistic descent with speed coming back to 250 at FL100 ?Would it just be vnav all the way down, or would you use V/S in the vicinity of FL100 to further aid the slowing down and then going back to VNAV once speed were nailed ?How would you do this with PIC to be "as real as it gets" ?Oh, something more, if you don't mind? :=)How would you rate PICs manual flying handling ? Is it OK, or close to the real thing ? And if so, what kind of sensitivities do you use in your FS2002 controller settings ? (I'm using CH yoke USB)Thank you!best regards,Tero

Wow, the posts during the last days are very interesting and very educational to read.I don't know how real life pilots do it, but I'll describe you what I do. It works for me everytime...During pre-flight, I set the FMC VNAV pages. On the CLB page, I put in the Transition Altitude (unfortunately default for PIC is always 18000), SPD RESTR of 250/10000 and a SPD TRANS of 280/13000.On the DCN page I also put in the SPD TRANS of 280/13000 and then again the SPD RESTR of 250/10000.Using the speed transition allows the a/c to accelarate smoothly during climb and not loose too much vertical momentum to catch the cruise speed immediately from 250Kts.During descend it helps the a/c to slow down more easily and again without loosing too much vertical speed. Usual descend speed for my flights is 296Kts. By forcing the FMC to slow down to 280Kts at 13000Ft, the a/c will have less speed to bleed off when approaching the limit of 250Kts at 10000Ft.Does the above make any sense to the real life pilots?As I said, it works fine for me... :-)Fly Safe,George DorkofikisAthens, Greece

There are many methods for acheiving ,the same result on a descent, use what works for you ,I find speed intervention works perfect for me, during the descent when I dial in a speed of 260 kts(still under vnav control) the aircraft will not actually decelerate to this speed for quite some time, But you will be at idle. I find the aircraft will always be slightly fast If I let it descend at its present rate approaching 10k, and that makes it a little busy trying to slow for the approach. This is just my preference though. If the dynamics were perfect in fs2002 things might be different but its always a compromise.

Wow, what a great bunch of responses here. Personally, I use every one of these. It just depends on what blows my hair back on a particular flight and with no rhyme or reason. The important thing is, THEY ALL WORK!Yea, Jackelb has one of the best tips (and his summary) in recommending the PIC documentation. Absolutely required reading for this beast. Jason

I just checked my AOM, and the max amount of ETOPS reserves I show is 59,500 lbs which, assuming a ZFW of 245K, puts you pretty much in line with your Max Landing Weight of 320,000. Of course, those numbers will be predicated on your initial loadout/ZFW.Anyway, this is a common mistake. There have been many a post in this forum about people not able to see the runway on final because their AOA on approach is so steep. Come to find out they're trying to put the bird down at 400K at Flaps 25 ;-) Alot of freeware (and payware) aircraft give far too much latitude in this regard. PIC is less forgiving. I suspect the real bird is also. Cheers,J