Has anyone else noticed that pitch trim with PIC is just plain impossible no matter what rig you are controlling with, be it joystick or Control Yoke? I think the long and short of it is that the flight model is flawed in this respect. Folks, it is just not possible to manually trim this bird out with any degree of precision, especially on ILS approach.I'm thinking the vast majority of users here are using the autopilot most of the way in for IMC landings. I'm really surprised more people haven't noticed this.I think the issue involves either wrong CG moment values and/or pitch stability scalars in the .air file/.cfg file.I recently compared 767PIC's pitch stability against the freeware Falcon 50's and it was the difference between night and day. The Falcon will trim out like a swiss watch but 767PIC has to be beaten and cajoled all the way down the glidepath. I just don't feel this is accurate as Boeing have a reputation for stability with their airliners. This is one bird that needs an .air file update to make it perfect.I love this addon, don't get me wrong. I just enjoy making everything as real as possible. As the original designers are no longer involved with PIC, I think there's a niche for users to poke and tweak to make this as polished a sim as possible :)Now, if we can just figure out how to tame the VFR view in addition :(

>Has anyone else noticed that pitch trim with PIC is just >plain impossible no matter what rig you are controlling >with, be it joystick or Control Yoke? Yes - and no.I had problems with the pitch trim granularity prior to getting updated drivers (using the CH Yoke Pro - whatever its called).So - drivers might be an issue.Calibration also might be an issue. Again, thats related to the drivers.You can also tweak the "elevator trim effectiveness" in the aircraft. cfg file. I had set it at 0.5 and it worked great. At least, it worked great for manual flying. At 0.5 sensitivity the PIC autopilot was unable to fly the aircraft smoothly. I ended up setting it to 0.8, and that helped enourmously (before getting my updated drivers).The other possibility is to utilize FSUIPC which has a parameter that allows you to eliminate the "stepping" built into the MSFS trim processing. When FS detects repeated application of trim, it increases the rate of change - makes it difficult to precisely make relatively large changes. FSUIPC can prevent that.Somewhere in all the above might be an answer.But - it is not a PIC problem.-michael

>I recently compared 767PIC's pitch stability against the >freeware Falcon 50's and it was the difference between night >and day. The Falcon will trim out like a swiss watch but >767PIC has to be beaten and cajoled all the way down the >glidepath. You are comparing apples to oranges. I have found gross variations in response when changing aircraft. Just perhaps, you may have your elevator sensitivity too high. I generally reduce the sensitivity on elevator and aileron, especially around neutral. Also, the driver calibration s/w allows me to apply exponential response around center - that works great because it provide less response to movement around center, and increasing response as you move from center. Makes for a very smooth response in pitch and roll (learned the value of that from flying precision R/C aerobatics ;-) ).-michael

This is the absolutely one of the most stable flying aircraft Available for fs2k2, you have got a controller problem or a setup config problem . The pitch trim on this aircraft is extremlly stable ,and 99% of my IMC approaches are manual with no problem whatsoever. It will hold 700fpm at VREF+5 with no input at all once atbilized on the approach.More people haven't noticed this is because they dont have a problem, did that ever occur to you?

I have no problem trimming the 767 at all. She trims like she was on rails. I too own the Falcon 50 and have success with that as well, however, the trim effect on the Falcon 50 is much more 'muted' (more trim input is required for the equivilent effect on the 767).There is an option in the Key Assignments page in FS which allows you to not only reassign keys/joystick buttons to FS features, but also allows you to adjust your Joystick's "Repeat" settings. This affects how many "signals" are sent by your joystick to the simulator when you hold down a button. You'll notice your brake button is set up this way. When you squeeze the brake button, multiple "brake" commands are sent to the simulator in rapid succession. This obviates the need to keep squeezing the brake trigger (you can just hold it) or pressing '.' half a hundred times. The pitch trim works the same way. By default, the slider for elevator trim is full to the right. Pull it back to mid way and you will likely find you have more precise control over the trim settings on the 767. If you prefer to have this slider full to the right, you will need to use short and quick bursts of trim to get the effect you're after. Alternatively, you can alter the trim effectiveness in the aircraft.cfg file, but you will impair the autopilot's (specifically VNAV) ability to track a vertical profile and a glideslope - so I personally do not recommend this practice.Good Luck!J

I have no trouble trimming. PIC is probably the most stable FS aircraft I fly. Like Jason, I have reduced the repeate rate for trim.Once you are trimmed for a given airspeed you might want to make small power adjustments to adjust your sink rate.Lee Hetherington (KBED)

No problem here with control of any sort on the 767 PIC. I land it without autopilot almost all the time, unless it is one of those 200 meter visibility days with a 100 foot ceilings. And I fly PIC alot, a whole lot!

Mike,that's an understatement.You've probably got more hours in PIC than Eric has in the Real thing :-lol :-lol :-lolMark

I think I need to give this reduced repeat rate a go here. There seems to be for me at least more than 2 deg up or down with each press for trim. FSD's commander 115 does not do this at all so I know its not the joystick drivers. I think some of you are missing the point here. Its not that the trim itself is bad or buggy but the RATE it is applied with the input and you guys prove my point by CHANGING the repeat rates. If there was no problem why would you change it? Best Wishes, Randy Smith

Keep in mind, the aircraft was designed for an FS2000 FDE for FS2000. The flight dynamics were never changed in the patch (at least that I am aware of). Furthermore, the trim settings were calibrated for maximum control in autoflight. All pitch is managed through short bursts of trim from the A/P. DreamFleet's 737 is the same way as is the PSS Airbus. I reckon neither the FSD Commander nor the Falcon 50 will ever track a glideslope or vertical profile with the precision these products offer.J

Jonas,The trim works great for me on takeoff, climbout, cruise, descent, and approach - never had a problem getting her stable.I try and always handfly my takeoffs to FL180 and usually disengage the A/T and take her out of CMD mode below 10,000 feet. I do admit that I often put the aircraft into APP mode when on final if the ILS is available - regardless of whether I am flying a visual approach of some sort - but all this does is supply the FD with information, so it would not affect the trim in any way what-so-ever.I believe the same methods of handflying go for the majority of the guys I fly with online all the time, and have not heard them complaining about the trim.I'm sorry my post can not be any more constructive than this, I am not sure if it was a question you were seeking answers for. I have not done any special tweaks to the bird at all. Installed it - downloaded the POSKY ACA B763, ran Lee's Merge and installed my CH YOKE. Nothing more than that - and it works great for me. I have flown a few thousand hours in the PIC and never had a trim problem. I have also never had any trim problems with the aircraft I frequent with the exception of that damned airbus that keeps trimming itself!Ian Elchitz CYWG

Well crudmuffins! If everyone else is getting pitch trim to behave with their rigs I must have a hardware settings issue to contend with. Thanks for all the input, I will take these suggestions to heart and see what I can effect.Thank again to all.

Thank you J. I have also been wondering for a long time as to why it was so difficult to trim the 767 PIC. You have explained alot and I have adjusted the 'Repeat' settings in the assignments section to 1/2 and that has made all the difference in the world as far as manual flying goes. Thanks again for bringing this to our attention.Regards,

Fine here, but sometimes I'm amazed at how light the controls are!