PM versus PMDG 737 autopilot systems?

[Guest aadoyle]

Hi, I'm a newbie with PMDG 737 and I am interested in switching to PM due to its full screen instruments, etc.I am wondering, given the great autopilot functions and realism in PMDG (autoland accuracy), how does the autopilot systems compare to PM?Which is better featured and is most realistic? Does PM do a good autloand like PMDG?I heard that PM uses default autopilot, so is that a downgrade from the PMDG custom autopilot?ThxAlan

[Guest Erups]

PMDG has full system integration, that means:exact type specific system reproduction, autopilot behaviour, autopilot modes and fmc menus, etc.PM is more focused on cockpit building, so the major pros are the scalability of the system, the fact that it's networkable, low computer specs needed, etc.Overall each one has its own pros and cons.It's true that PM uses default AP, but that's not all there is to it.PM (if you have the FMC module) calculates pitch modes, vertical speed, bank and so on, just like any other commercial package.Just that to apply that values, it uses the default AP.Admittedly this can result in less precision then commercial airplane packages, just because PM can't be complitely indipendent from FS own AP and so will inherit its problems.Surely PM has done a great job improving their software to smooth flying performances and limit FS errors.But technically, unless it starts piloting airplanes via joystick inputs, it can't reach the same level of accuracy as PMDG.Anyway i do not own PM and can't speak very well for it, i only tried it and read about it.

[Guest aadoyle]

>But technically, unless it starts piloting airplanes via joystick inputs, it can't reach the same level of accuracy as PMDG.Anyway i do not own PM and can't speak very well for it, i only tried it and read about it.I don't understand this?are you saying that PM's VNAV is not accurate in comparison to PMDG and that it can't do an accurate VNAV PATH descent taking winds into account?THxAlan

[Guest Erups]

>are you saying that PM's VNAV is not accurate in comparison to>PMDG and that it can't do an accurate VNAV PATH descent taking>winds into account?No i am not saying this.Really complex autopilots (like the PMDG) do not make any use of FS default AP.Thus getting rid of any problem related to this autopilot.While PM, while doing every calculation, relays on the FS AP for actually executing the commands elaborated by the FMC.This means that indipendent APs can be more precise.But i doubt this is noticeable.And Schiratti is always refining the software.As for the winds: i really don't know how much PM takes weather into account.PM does not provide air files, so for example thrust limiting is not under his control, rather under the control of the air file you use.But i don't know much about this matter.I can say that PMDG accounts forthermal deviationtakeoff thrust performance (thrust reduction)winds (you can define layers of wind for the approach and descent).I don't know if PM does this.

[oal331 0]

I have both PM and PMDG products.They are totally diferent and i use both of them.PM's s/w is for home cockpit builders or people they want to fly with more than one PC, to have network gauges and if they want to have tha ability to connect FMC or MCP and EFIS with hardware devices. It's really very exiting to turn a knob for change the speed or the heading, insterad click with the mouse. Today PM's s/w it's the only one and complete solution. It supports for Boeing or Airbus aircrafts the FMC/CDU, MCP & EFIS, PFD & ND, EICAS and the new upcoming program PMsystems for Overhead panels etc. PM supports almost all the Boeing types, when you buy Boeing version. So you can fly 737, 757, 767, 777 or 747, but you have to add your aircraft files. The major problem until now, is that PM does not have a complete aircraft package (or all type aircrafts) with it's own air file and config files, so it will be better for autopilot to knows well what to do in specific aircraft and what to expect from the aircraft's systems, weight, model, etc. I hope that Enrico will do something for this in the future :-)PMDG's s/w is for a single PC user with one or more monitors in the same PC. It is a good and complete aircraft solution, with all the systems and also it's *.air file. This means that all the aircraft's systems are working very very good and autopilot controls the aircraft almost perfect, because autopilot supports the specific aircraft and not any aircraft like PM's autopilot. So when you are in level flight and you turning left or right autopilot will not "loose" the altitude and it starts the turn by remaining in level flight. The big problem is that you can not have network gauges, or control the aircrafts systems with any hardware devices, beacuse does not support Fsuipc offsets. So you can not use it with FsBus, Opencockpits, or any other h/w systems :-(So now, you may see some differences in these 2 products.This means, that if you want to make a small or big home cockpit, PM is the solution for you, but if you want to have one PC, to fly fast without many PCs and network connections, the PMDG's 737 is perfect.regardsEddie ArmaosAthens-Greece

[Guest rahulsh]

Eddie,Very comprehensive reply... Builds my case to go for PM. If I have most of the instruments interfaced through a simpit, it would be a waste to autoland anyway. :-)However, PMDG is really a class apart in a non-simpit environment. Maybe, I'll have a separate PC away from my simpit just for it.Rahul SharmaNew Delhi, India.vt737ng@yahoo.com

[Guest aadoyle]

It seems from what you say PM isn't so accurate after all, in terms of its autopilot. That seems terrible for the price you pay. I think i'll wait for a more integrated solution for cockpit builders.

[tigert 0]

>It seems from what you say PM isn't so accurate after all, in>terms of its autopilot. That seems terrible for the price you>pay. I think i'll wait for a more integrated solution for>cockpit builders.>You want to build a cockpit with good flight controls and high degree of realism and then let the "George" fly all the way??! :-) Are you serious? :)//Tuomas

[Guest aadoyle]

No, but autopilot is used often and I would require it to be accurate, especially approach and landing (autoland) and VNAV descent.

[Guest Woof]

Err, just to add my 2 cents worth. I have both PMDG737NG and the full Project Magenta glass cockpit. This thread gives the impression that PM is SO inaccurate as to be nearly useless in comparison to PMDG - utter tripe.Admittedly PM does have issues, as does every other piece of software I've ever bought, but my properly installed, properly configured PM setup is without doubt head and shoulders above anything else I've seen, when I take all factors into account, including Autoland."I think i'll wait for a more integrated solution for cockpit builders."Are you serious? What exactly are you waiting for? I keep hearing about this company promising this, and that company promising that - NO other group has released a suite of products to even come close to Project Magenta.Do you have real yokes, with real stick shakers and feel, real rudder pedals with real toe brakes? Probably not. I bet that for 90% plus of the cockpit builders that come to this forum, PM will be the MOST realistic part of their sim.If PMSystems lives up to it's promises, Magenta will extend the gap even further, and the support provided by Enrico, Katy and Jonathan is superb.PMDG and PM are two different things. One is a great model, high on accuracy and great value for money but is virtually useless for a cockpit builder. The other is a high quality, fully supported suite of software which will become the heart of a sim and just gets better with time.CheersChris

[Guest aadoyle]

So, what is the autoland behavior like?

[Guest Woof]

>So, what is the autoland behavior like?>It's just great. I've had issues in the past with constant oscillating above and below, left and right of the glideslope, and many users reported that they landed next to the runway rather than on it. The only time I've seen the latter is when I added some aftermarket scenery and the runway was literally in the wrong place. Apparently these issues are down to network performance???Project Magenta isn't a simple install and you'll be flying in 5 minutes solution. I run it on multiple PC's (7 in fact just for Magenta) and it takes time and effort to set up properly. The forum on PM's website is superb and you can expect replies to your issues from other users very quickly, often from Enrico, Katy, Jonathan and Peter Dowson directly. I would estimate that it took me several weeks to get it setup in such a way that I was happy, and as it evolves the work involved will too.As I said, if you are looking for a glass cockpit solution as part of a home cockpit build, PMDG is pretty useless to you, however accurate it's flight model, autopilot, graphics etc are. I have both products and both are superb at doing what they were intended to do - I use PMDG when I want a quick setup flight with more accuracy and control than you can get with standard FS2004. I use PM as part of an ongoing project to build a 737 cockpit (see www.virtual737.com).CheersChris

[Guest yoss]

By the way, guys you probably know thats exists Magenta- PMDG 737-700 mode on Pm web site, so you can enjoy both woldsAs to me, i seriouly considering the PM suite purchasse ,just waiting to see before that ,what the upcomming B767 level D will have to offer us, cockpit builders

[oal331 0]

>It seems from what you say PM isn't so accurate after all, in>terms of its autopilot. That seems terrible for the price you>pay. I think i'll wait for a more integrated solution for>cockpit builders.>Sorry, but i didn't say that PM is terrible. I'm saying that has some issues as it's not a complete "package" with intergrated aircraft(s), as PMDG is. I know these issues and i believe that the possitive things are more than the negative, for my small cockpit, (i wish that it will be a comlete 737NG when it grows !!)Also Enrico, Jonath and Katy, they support the product all these years now and Enrico make new versions very often, with new things and improve the s/w.PM's s/w is until now the only working solution for small or big home cockpit builders. I have intergrated with Fsbus system and i control my aircraft using my cuctom made MCP + EFIS.PMDG is a very good solution, for an immediate takeoff, without to need time for preparation the other networking PC's, monitors, systems etc. It has a super autopilot, controling the flight very very good, as PMDG had assign this part of software programing to Mr Vaos Vaggelis, a Greek friend here in Athens. He is a specialist in this and in his real life is working with the aircraft industry and also he loves this hobby and he was one of the first people flying with Fs online. That's way the autopilot is so accurate.So, these two products, ARE totally different and i have both of them, enjoying each one !!About PIC, ( the first love ).I don't know many things for the upcoming PIC2, but from the video i saw, it is like the PIC ver1, with virtual cockpit and F/O panel. I don't know if they want to invest in the cockpit builders market and make the new version with networking gauges, or with fsuipc offstes etc etc. But don't forget that the big large market with many sales and profit just needs a good product for a single PC, like the ver1. So.... what?......Don't expect to have with few euros/dollars, a pro solution with all the systems working and a perfect autopilot, with specialist in programming and support, with the existing capabilites of MS-Fs and the perfect sceneries with the existing PCs !!! Let's have a dream live and waiting for the perfect to come!!!Best regards, respecting the developers and loving our hobby... :-)Eddie ArmaosAthens-Greece