Hi All!I would like some additional infos or maybe personal experiences about collimated displays. I've read everything I possibly could about this but there's still no word about how much it could cost (big companies like Mountain Optics are definitely too expensive).I'm mostly looking for some cheap solutions that can render that kind of depth and that both FO and Captain could enjoy(so no fresnel lenses.). Thank you for your help! (BTW I'm a new builder here though I 've been browsing all sorts of forums and site about this hobby for a long time now) :-)

Hi dd44 (sorry don't know your name),This is a topic that's been around since the beginning of time.... well... may be not time, but since Flight Sim Builders has become a hobby.I and many of my colleagues have researched this topic extensively, vigorously and with much passion. We know this is the ultimate, most realistic viewing for our projects. Unfortunately, as you have also discovered, there is no inexpensive method to do this.I encourage you or anyone else to continue the research of finding a methodology (affordable costs) to build a collimating mirror display system for our cockpits.In the meantime I keep researching and fantasizing:)

I would like to add also one more thing to that! Apart from being expensive actually collimated Displays makes you Dizzy :) Well how do I know that cause when we go to the A-320 sim even with motion the sim makes you a bit dizzy but if you stop the motion and just let the visuals do their work is worst!! During flight and with motion on is not that bad and also motion is part of the sensation... What I

>Hi All!>>I would like some additional infos or maybe personal>experiences about collimated displays. I've read everything I>possibly could about this but there's still no word about how>much it could cost (big companies like Mountain Optics are>definitely too expensive).I'm mostly looking for some cheap>solutions that can render that kind of depth and that both FO>and Captain could enjoy(so no fresnel lenses.). Collimated mirror units need to be calibrated for a certain eyepoint, so you cannot get a wide non-distrupted view. Usually on those the captain and first officer both have a front view in front of them (usually a cloned image for both) and the captain can see the right side view and the first officer the left - its not possible to make it "align" for both.The newer sims use a projector-based collimation system that has a wide spherical mirror and seamless image.Then again, nothing wrong in having two front views, but for a seamless, wide visual you need something else than the mirror thingys.//Tuomas

Actually I

Thank you very much for all these fast answers!So apparently I'll have to go for a projector. That's too bad because I really liked the sense of depth that a fresnel lens,for example , could give you (though you had to be aligned):(.This was really important for me as I'm a private pilot, I think it's pretty immersive and that's what I'm looking for... Any other ideas to make it deep?:-eek David

You could do stereo! Although steroscopic technology doesnt work all that well in large outdoor environments, but should give you more depth, than mono.But that means 2 projectors! AND glasses + polarized filters = passive stereoRegardsPeter

You caught all my attention here!;-) How does it really work and why 2 projectors?? Also , are you talking about stereo glasses or some other techniques, you say it doesnt work outdoor but would it work in a sim cockpit then?Thank you!

Actually I'm not 100% sure that it would work, but here's how normal passive stereo works:Passive stereo is a setup where you use 2 outputs on a graphics card to each drive a separate projector. One for each eye. (no you don't need 4 projector if you have a co-pilot, LOL)In front of each projector you have a polarized filter, vertically polarized for one projector and horizontally polarized for the other projetor.The glasses you need to wear then has the same polarization vert./horiz. as the projectors. This means that your left eye only sees what the left projector beams out, and your right eye only sees what the right projector beams out. You can read more about it here:http://www.vrmedialab.dk/pr/facilities/3d_visualization.htmlNow when I say that I'm not 100% sure it will work, it's because ideally you need the application (fs2004) to render 2 images next to each other, of the same environment only adjusted a bit for eye separation (parallax). Also know as superdesktop mode. So two single eyeviews on a dualview graphics card.What could be "tried", is to have two internal views in FS and adjust them manually. I will try that myself asap, and get back with results.I hope this makes sense, as I know it can be confusing.Best regardsPeter

>What could be "tried", is to have two internal views in FS and>adjust them manually. I will try that myself asap, and get>back with results.Wideview could probably be configured like this - two 3d views is too much for one CPU usually.Here's a pic of our collimated display:http://dev.mik.fi/gallery/albums/simu-teli..._0464.sized.jpgAnd here's how it looks from inside:http://www.tigert.com/aviation/vatsim/cock...f/pulja-800.jpghttp://www.tigert.com/aviation/vatsim/cock...uff/simvis.jpegThere are some issues: The mirrors are aligned to one spot. Which is hard if you have two seats. We aligned it more towards the left seat, so the right seater will suffer. But for the pilot one gets quite reasonable view. Its not completely seamless since we have 21" monitors and it could use a bit larger ones, but this, all in all, is worth it anyway. Even with the small black bars (those sort of look like window frames) and the small distortion of perspective on right and left sides created by parhelia (no true side views but one stretched one zoomed all the way out) - the net effect still is worth it, the display does give you a pretty good feeling of immersion and if you dont concentrate on the imperfections, it is pretty convincing and good. Wide = good since your peripheral vision is important for motion cues.(The scenery on the lowest pic is the amazing freeware Kittil

Thank you for your advice!!Concerning the two projectors, I've read that this kind of system makes you feel realy dizzy! If this is true then it might not be worth it unfortunately.Tuomas, wow impressive thing!! I wish I could find an easy, inexpensive and realistic rendering system, I guess one can dream...:-roll any other infos are welcomed.BTW just to keep you aware of what I'm doing : I'm currently building a CNC milling machine to cut my panels, thought it was the best way to get my project started which will certainly be an A320 or A340:-)

Here's some pics.Does anybody know how to make pictures appear in the message?Actually you can see (what should be:-hah ) an FCU(jigsawed!). That's when I realised I would definitely have to build a CNC prior to anything;-)

A-320 RULES :)!!

David,The human eye reports only limited 3D information to the brain, and that is in the form of angular disparity. This is the difference in perspective that results from the eyes being separated by a few inches. There is very little perceived angular disparity in objects 10 feet from the eyes, and at 30 feet there is none.3D displays that generate angular disparity are most useful for creating 3D effects that are perceived as close to the viewer. The last company I worked for has a couple of "3D labs" based on "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. The lab was used to view and interact with 3D seismic data. When you force 3D angular disparity on distant objects you create a distracting, amusement park style effect.Collimated displays are not 3D displays. Collimation actually removes the angular disparity a viewer perceives when looking at a nearby monitor. This angular disparity is processed by the brain to say the image is flat and close at hand. By removing the disparity, other clues to the 3D nature of the scene rendered in the monitor can dominate. For example, if an object is small it might be far away, if something occludes another it is the nearer object, and so on. Optical systems that collimate displays for large fields of view and multiple points of view (i.e. two people) are a real challenge. They involve large mirrors with complex curves, large screens with more complex curves and a number of video projectors. While an old style, mirror collimated display with a single point of view and limited field of view is probably within the skills of many hobbyists, the bigger systems likely are not.Professional flight simulators use these systems to provide an immersive visual environment on a moving platform. The visual systems are preferably small and light weight (at least in a relative sense). The larger and heavier these systems are, the greater the demand on the motion base. If you don't have these constraints, you can get the same or similar visual effects in other ways.If you have the room, you can very nearly collimate your scenery display by moving the image plane at least 10 feet away. Yup, this means projectors, and to get the peripheral vision, probably three of them. There are some very promising looking DIY projectors that may be of interest. The basic idea is to disassemble a 15 inch LCD monitor and place it in the image plane of a homemade projector. Cost looks to be on the order of $300~400 each. If the room is not available, you can still get some (significant) benefit by using multiple TV monitors just outside the cockpit windows. They will be close enough that angular disparity will be an issue, but because they are farther away than the MIP and controls, there is still a feeling of "out there". (Take a look at the Delta Flight site archive. This technique is used there.) The lower relative resolution of TV monitors is fine because the screen surfaces are a little farther away than you would normally view a computer monitor.Mikewww.mikesflightdeck.com

Thank you for that lesson Mike!!:-) That 's even more interesting as I'v just begun optical course in my engineering school (this hobby definitely covers a lot of technical and scientific fields!).I think that I 'm going to trust you (I know I can:-) ) and go for a Projector. (stil it's weird to think I wont see that the image is flat, in those situation you realise that theory often beat common sense).One question though, is there another condition so that it works, like reducing the field of vision (I mean being isolated from the environement that surrounds the cockpit, not being able to see the edges of the screen etc...