Hello Everybody, I have a few small questions I would like to ask before upgrading my Dell 2.0ghz P4. First off my computer runs great with all the sliders maxed (ALL, even AI). 1) I have a Geforce 3 TI-200/.. I was always told that the "TI" line was better than the "MX" line of video cards, so I went with the TI. Now I see TI 4600/4800s, but I also see a new card the 5900 FX. What is this FX series of cards? Is this the next "low-bugjet" MX series, or is this replacing the TI series as cutting edge technology fot the Gefore cards. 2) Also, can I just plug a 5900 or TI4600 into my old cards slot, or do I have to get a new motherboard? (I know very little about this stuff, as you can see) 3) Now I have a 1 year old Dell 8200, 2.0Ghz computer. Can I change the processor to a Hyper-Threading P4 or would I have to get a new motherboard, ram, and so on? 4) If I cant put a HT P4 on it, can I atleast upgrade to a 3.06 or alteast a 2.6/2.8 without changing tons of stuff? 5) If you had $500 to play with, what would you get to upgrade this computer???Thanks, Marc

> 1) I have a Geforce 3 TI-200/.. I was always told that the>"TI" line was better than the "MX" line of video cards, so I>went with the TI. Now I see TI 4600/4800s, but I also see a>new card the 5900 FX. What is this FX series of cards? Is this>the next "low-bugjet" MX series, or is this replacing the TI>series as cutting edge technology fot the Gefore cards.The FX is the next line of nVidia cards. The FX does not denote any type of high or low end models. The 5900 is the current nVidia high end model, which is second only to the ATI 9800.> 2) Also, can I just plug a 5900 or TI4600 into my old cards>slot, or do I have to get a new motherboard? (I know very>little about this stuff, as you can see)Depends. Do you have a big enough power supply? Check with the manufacturor to see if you have a big enough power supply. What is the max AGP level that your board can do? 4x, 8x? If you can only do 4x, you can top out at a Ti4600, or an ATI 9700(by far the best card you can get that is 4x AGP)> 3) Now I have a 1 year old Dell 8200, 2.0Ghz computer. Can I>change the processor to a Hyper-Threading P4 or would I have>to get a new motherboard, ram, and so on?Again, depends. I do know know that much about intel boards(I am an AMD man), so my answer is generic: Do you have the right kind of slot? Can your board take the FSB of the high end CPUs? (800 mhz me thinks off of the top of my head)I would take my answer with a grain of salt and wait for a guru to step in and enlighten you :)> 4) If I cant put a HT P4 on it, can I atleast upgrade to a>3.06 or alteast a 2.6/2.8 without changing tons of stuff?I would assume 2.6/2.8 without major system changes, but I am not sure(see answer to #3) > 5) If you had $500 to play with, what would you get to>upgrade this computer???That is a tough one. I would at least upgrade the video card. But your CPU needs it as well. I suppose I would spilt the difference, go for a moderate CPU upgrade(2.6/2.8), and go for the ATI 9700. I think you can squeeze that into $500, and you wouldn't be sorry. Of course, this answer depends on what your current motherboard can do. :)Good luck!

Fred, Thanks for the reply, it really maters to me. How would you say I go about finding if my motherboard can handle 4X or 8X? Would Dell be able to pull up my system specs and tell me? Hmmm, I will call Dell right now and find out, thanks for your time.Marc

Marc --No problem! I hope your upgrade goes well :) Let me know if you have any more questions.

I don't think that there are serious disadvantages in running a X8 card in a X4 m/b. I believe that even under these circumstances a 9800 outperforms a 9700.Kind regards,

No disadvantages? I dunno about that. To me, you are holding a piece of hardware back from doing what it can do. I suppose that is fine if you have an uber fast computer, and you are buying a piece of hardware to put in a new mobo that you intend to buy really soon(which would support this card at its full capabilities)In his case, he has x amount of money to spend. He can either blow it all on the vid card(get the 9800 or 5900, whatever he decides). Both of which will put him close to $500, his top limit. And for what? An upgrade that doesn't do all that I think he can get with his money. If he does the CPU and videocard upgrade, I think he gets more bang for his buck. Of course, your mileage may differ and you think that his 2 gig processor is enough..... :)

Whether his motherboard is 4x or 8x doesn't matter. If he's going to run a 128mb video card, he'll see no difference in speed whatsoever. The 9700 and the 9800 as well as the 9500 cards are all 8xAGP cards but will run fine on a 4xAGP motherboard with virtually no speed difference. His problem is Power Supply and whether his particular motherboard will run a larger processor. Dell motherboards usually cannot be changed? If he has a 250 watt Dell Power Supply, he's all set to run any of the 9*00 ATI cards. The 5900FX requires a larger Power Supply than the ATI cards though, so he'd best do some research on the Dell forums before deciding on a 5900FX. Besides, they're $500 bucks. The 9800 Pro is $375 and the 9700 Pro can be had for $260. Research on the Dell forums will also answer his question regarding his processor upgrade. I suspect he'll probably be able to go to a PIV 2.4 or 2.6 without problems; probably 400mhz ; but the Dell folks are the ones who could answer that. An upgraded processor and a 9700 Pro card will get him a lot of mileage as far as FS2k2 or 2k4 goes and be within his budget. One thing about a Dell is that you can usually get an extra year or so out of them by swapping video cards and processors out. But you gotta be careful and do the research first.

Bigshot -That is what I have been saying, processor and an ATI 9700 and he will be all set.BTW, I am curious, can you back up your claim that a 4x or 8x baord doesn't matter? Has Tom's Hardware done comparision tests of the same card running on a 4x bus and then a 8x bus? I am curious on this matter.Oh BTW again, I didn't know that the 9800 could be had for so cheaply(, relatively speaking :)

The 5900 is the>current Nvidia high end model, which is second only to the ATI>9800.What a load of crap! Especially since we are in the Hardware forum where most performance is in reference to Flight sims,The only upper hand that the ATI card has over the 5900 is much better AA filtering at the higher settings (above 4Xs). However even that could easily be argued is a moot point as it is more logical to run FS at high res combined with 4Xs and 8xAF as the resulting performance and image quality is the only smart alternative for both cards even at today

Hello Everybody, Wow, its nice to see everybody helping me. Paul, I read you letter with great intrest, I must say you have scared me away from a ATI. Maybe I will just stick with a TI model...like a TI-4600... Ok everybody, this is what Dell said. My board is a 4X AGP board. I have a 478 pin (bos?). I guess thats the pins on the P4? I have a 850 chip set. PCI 33, AGP 66. My board can go up to a 533mhz FSB and a 2.8 gig P4. Now my question to you all is, where can I buy a good P4 and a GF4 Ti-4600 (NEW) at a good price? Dell wanted to sell me a 2.6 P4 chip for $500+. Is this a good deal? I look to all of you for help, since you are the ones in the "know"!!!Marc

Everybody, After looking on the net, I can go to some good places (googlegear/ newegg) and get P4 2.8s for $265. Now a small question, how much do you think the install will cost at CompUSA. Hmmm, maybe $200?Marc

__________________________________________________________________Bigshot -That is what I have been saying, processor and an ATI 9700 and he will be all set.BTW, I am curious, can you back up your claim that a 4x or 8x baord doesn't matter? Has Tom's Hardware done comparision tests of the same card running on a 4x bus and then a 8x bus? I am curious on this matter._____________________________________________________________________ba747heavy;I've read about this discussion of speed difference many times from various sources on the web. Haven't seen any official tests anywhere. Just yesterday, I again seen a discussion on the subject over at www.rage3d.com where the geeks were talking about it and the consenus seemed to be that with current games with a 128mb video card, there'd be little or no difference in speed. Seemed to make sense from the little I understand about the subject. Also, the Sapphire 9800 Pro Retail is selling for $375 at newegg right now. The 9700 Pro is all over the place. I've seen it as low as $250 and as high as $320. If you look around, you'll find one around $260-$275. Buy two for the price of one 5900 Ultra.Paul; the only alpha textures I've had trouble with alaising on in FS2k2 is the addon trees by Gerrish. Specifically, his GTL trees. As I said before, I got rid of that by turning the mipmap down one notch. Well, I got tired of that and switched to Gerrish's Connifer addon and turned the mipmaps back up. Problem went away. I see no other problems with any alpha textures in FS2k2. Just those specific trees. Where are the other textures you speak of?? They're not shimmering. I run at 1600x1200x32 with 4xAA & 16xAF with all the sliders maxed out except for mesh which I leave at 90 percent. All the textures are quiet. Now, IL2 has some problems with some of the shorelines. Not all of em'; but enough to be noticeable. Not the case in FS2k2.The problem with Nvidia cards is when you turn on the full featured alaising, the framerates die. The new 5900 Ultra doesn't do that well either from what I understand. And the 9800 is still the winner when you compare pic quality. BTW; I agree with 747heavy in that the 9800 Pro is still number one. Because, I run high res and heavy AA & AF with everything. You make it sound like shimmering is a problem with ATI cards. Not true. ATI has much better AA than Nvidia does. That's one of the many things that has me extremely impressed with my ATI card.

>ba747heavy;>>I've read about this discussion of speed difference many times>from various sources on the web. Haven't seen any official>tests anywhere. 4x and 8x AGP?There are some decent benchmarks publicly published comparing 128mb and 256mb cards running at 4x and 8x AGP. 8x AGP stands out when you start to throw a lot of textures around, like we start to see in FS2k2 with various 3rd party add-ons etc.I will dig up a link and post it here later.>Paul; the only alpha textures I've had trouble with Alaising>on in FS2k2 is the addon trees by Gerrish. Specifically, his>GTL trees. As I said before, I got rid of that by turning the>mipmap down one notch. Well, I got tired of that and switched>to Gerrish's Connifer addon and turned the mipmaps back up. >Problem went away. I see no other problems with any alpha>textures in FS2k2. Just those specific trees. The ATI cards do not AA any Alpha textures period, switching to higher res textures always helps but it wont completely do away with the shimmies, don't fool yourself. Other Alphas beside all trees? Radio towers, fences, the sun and moon, various parts of buildings and airport structures as well as many custom 3d objects, bits and pieces to aircraft and cockpit areas as well as some of the animation effects; if any of these have high contrasting edges or colors they will shimmy and they certainly wont get antialiased.I run>at 1600x1200x32 with 4xAA & 16xAF with all the sliders maxed>out except for mesh which I leave at 90 percent.I agree, that setting with these new fast cards is the tops for balanced performance and image quality in FS2k2. All the>textures are quiet. Seen it, with both the 9700 and 9800P and it is still there even at higher res than 16x12 but it certainly is playable and the effect is very diminished but it is not gone.>>The problem with Nvidia cards is when you turn on the full>featured alaising, the framerates die. The new 5900 Ultra>doesn't do that well either from what I understand. The 9800Pro and the 5900Ultra trade places at the highest AA/AF settings on many games and various benchmarks, in FS2k2 their impact is just to small to begin with that there performance will be too close to worry about so then it comes back to image quality, ATI's 4xAA compared to NV's 4Xs is close enough that anyone would be hard pressed to tell which card they are using during game play (I have only witnessed the 5800 compared to the 9700P but nothing has changed with the newer cards).And the>9800 is still the winner when you compare pic quality. Again, ATI only uses AF a few degrees past vertical and horizontal and while the NV card does the whole scene and if you are using FS that is a image quality problem for the ATI card.The ATI card does not AA the whole scene as well (Alpha).So if you want to brag about image quality you better pick a different game because in FS2k2 the winner is the 5900, even a GF4200 can do 4xsAA/8xAF of the whole scene.>agree with 747heavy in that the 9800 Pro is still number one. >Because, I run high res and heavy AA & AF with everything.You may want to rethink that. >You make it sound like shimmering is a problem with ATI cards.Only where Alphas are used. ATI has much better AA than Nvidia does. For sure.But at 4xAA as the settings you suggest who can tell the difference in game play? That's>one of the many things that has me extremely impressed with my>ATI card.Your card is a very good one for sure.

________________________________________________________Other Alphas beside all trees? Radio towers, fences, the sun and moon, various parts of buildings and airport structures as well as many custom 3d objects, bits and pieces to aircraft and cockpit areas as well as some of the animation effects; if any of these have high contrasting edges or colors they will shimmy and they certainly wont get antialiased._________________________________________________________Paul; Awe, the radio towers. I've seen that. Not a shimmer, but a jagged edge from certain angles on that tower. Not a show stopper. The sun looks like it has sundogs around it. Really cool looking compared to the clean edge on the nvidia. I like mine better. The moon looks clean. Haven't noticed any fences. I'll have to look for that. I've had trouble with certain aircraft textures. One example is the Fokker AA textures around the windows. That can be fixed by adding more mipmaps from what I understand. I seldom run across any problems with aircraft textures, but have seen it on a few. When I do, I just go look for another texture that's been done better. The colors are much, much brighter and clearer on the ATI. But then as you said, FS2k2 uses an old terrain engine compared to some of the newer games out today and a poor sim to be using when comparing this type thing. When it's time for me to upgrade again, which will be a while, I'll be looking at both Nvidia and ATI to see who's got what. ATI is most certainly the better buy today. IMHO! But then, I haven't seen nor heard many comments about the 5900 Ultra yet? That one has to come down in price if Nvidia wants to go anywhere with it.

>Hello Everybody,> Wow, its nice to see everybody helping me. > Paul, I read you letter with great intrest, I must say you>have scared me away from a ATI. Maybe I will just stick with a>TI model...like a TI-4600...Not a good Idea at all. Throw money away on old technology so to speak. Spend $170 bucks on an ATI 9500Pro while you still can and it will easily outperform a Ti4600/4800. Paul, don't freak out on me..Lol you know it's true :)> Ok everybody, this is what Dell said. > My board is a 4X AGP board. I have a 478 pin (bos?). I guess>thats the pins on the P4? I have a 850 chip set. PCI 33, AGP>66. My board can go up to a 533mhz FSB and a 2.8 gig P4.You have a board that supports RDRAM(Rambus). If your running PC800, consider adding more. You should have at least 512 Megs. If possible consider upgrading to PC1066. The board will handle it. Also, if the board will support a 2.8 it will support a 3.06 w HT. Although right now there really is ZERO benefit to HT w 99% of the programs out right now. FS2004 I believe will offer support for it. > Now my question to you all is, where can I buy a good P4 and>a GF4 Ti-4600 (NEW) at a good price? Dell wanted to sell me a>2.6 P4 chip for $500+. Is this a good deal? I look to all of>you for help, since you are the ones in the "know"!!!>Dell is trying to rip you off insanely...Go to WWW.NEWEGG.COM and pick up a 3.06 P4 for $364. A 9500Pro can be had for $175. Wow !! Look at that, just over $500 and your machine will really show an improvement. You'll thank yourself for it. :)Bobby