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Guest Ruahrc

Some questions about Classic Airliners 2...

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All of a sudden today I have this impulse to find a good DC-10. I currently have the SGA model which IMO is fantastic but lately as I have become accustomed to "proper" panels (i.e. PMDG, PSS, etc) with FMC and systems simulation the freeware panel I have for the DC10 isn't cutting it anymore. I found the Aerosim Classic Airliners 2 package and saw that it included a DC-10. Sweet. But I have not been able to find much info regarding the product. Maybe you guys can help me out?To start off- What liveries are available for the DC-10? Specifically I want NWA's OC (red body and grey top) and NC (silver body and red tail) liveries. To be honest, that's all I really care about hehe. The whole package for an NWA DC-10.How detailed is the systems simulation? Are things such as electric generators and hyrdaulic pressure simulated? What about cabin pressurization? Fuel management? (Transferring fuel from tank to tank etc. Apparently on the DC-10 fuel management was necessary in-flight to keep the AC in CoG limits)Navigation? I see on the L1011 that you all love it's got an INS and a FMC tied into it. Apparently the DC-10 was a little before the time of the FMS.. so it has INS only? Is it possible to navigate the aircraft solely by the INS, or is it more of a "display" gauge on the DC-10 which is neat to look at (displays your lat/lon position) but not really useful from a navigation standpoint? I know it's a different story on the L1011 with the FMC but what's it like on the DC-10? I looked at the screenshots on the aerosim website and saw in the DC-10 panel there was a switch for NAV/GPS. This swich tells me FS9 default GPS is really what's used on the DC-10 panel for navigation? Not any different from the freeware panel I have now? The quality and the functionality of the panel/systems is very critical to me- I want a fairly realistic representation of the DC-10. Not necessarily looking for PMDG-level simulation (although that woudl be nice! :)) but if I can essentially get the same functionality from a freeware panel then it makes Classic Airliners 2 a tough sell....Have you guys seen the Simufly Delco CIVA INS gauge? The website is at http://www.simufly.com/ins Apparently it's a very complete simulation of the real INS unit and is truly one of the best "hidden gems" of FS. Not many people know of it, not many people want this level of complexity, and best of all it's FREE! Anyways how does the INS packaged with the DC-10 compare to this Simufly unit? And if the simufly unit is more comprehensive, has anyone here tried installing the Simufly unit to the jets of Classic Airliners 2? Apparently like the pilots on this forum, people who use the Simufly INS swear by it.Does it have wing-views? I like to use Active Camera and get wing views- can I do this with the DC-10?How detailed is the model? If any of you are familiar with the SGA DC-10 how does it compare? I consider the SGA model to be quite detailed and if the Aerosim model is similar I'm happy. Does it have wingflex? Opening passenger/cargo doors?How is the airplane performance-wise? Is it heavy on frames or does it run pretty well? My system I consider "low high-end" so I don't forsee any problems but still curious because I run a lot of complex scenery.Whew sorry for so many questions guess I had a lot :). Anyways this Classic Airliners 2 package really has me curious but I need some more info before I can make a purchase. Thanks for any help you can provide to me!Ruahrc

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Ruahrc,The DC-10-30 comes with the Factory Douglas paint and the new Hawaiian colors. There are also repaints in FedEx, World and Gemini.The DC-10-40 comes with the Factory Douglas paint and the Old NWA paint not the silver newest NWA paint job. Not too sure if there are any repaints for the dash 40, but I think the dash 10 repaints will work on the dash 40?If you are only interested in the DC-10 I would probably just recommend staying with the SGA DC-10, download a freeware panel and install the CIVA INS into the panel.I haven't flown the AeroSim DC-10 so I can't comment on how the aircraft handles in the air.Hope this helps.Ed

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I have flown the Aerosim DC-10 and she handles sweet. If all you're looking for is the Northwest livery I would buy it. The visual model is slighty better than SGA's. What the heck is a IMO? I fly strickly GPS. As far as liveries go for whatever reason there are very few, two or three.

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Thanks for the replies :) Looks like I finally managed to pull you guys away from that TriStar cockpit...INS is a navigation tool used on real-world aircraft. Basically it operates on the principle that if you know where you started, know how fast you're going at all times, and know in which direction you are flying, you should be able to tell where you are.To that end you first program your current location in the beginning of a flight when you are at the gate, and then the INS system has very sensitive gyroscopes that can detect motion in any direction. Coupled with speed readings you can always tell where you are. No GPS Satellite needed, no radio beacon needed, it's all internal. Naturally the accuracy will begin to diminish after a few hours but combined with ground-based navaids and linking multiple INS units together (most long-haul airplanes have 3) you can get around the accuracy degradation.Since you fly GPS I take it the DC-10 panel uses the MSFS GPS then huh? That's what I was afraid of. I think for the time being I will stick to the SGA DC-10. I will craft out the GPS and craft in the INS, and see how it goes. I do have a couple strange issues with the SGA's FDE in that it likes to cruise at 5 degrees pitch, a little too high for my tastes. I know enough about aircraft.cfg to adjust that though.Thanks for the responses though! BTW does the Aerosim DC-10 have any kind of systems simulation like Fuel management, cabin pressure, APU? What about the other Classic Liners 2 jets like the Tristar?Ruahrc

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No, the Aerosim DC-10 uses INS, coupled with an FMS. Like most FS aircraft, there is a GPS backup there for those who need it, but I think you'll find most of us have never called that window up!I don't fly the Aerosim DC-10, so can't answer most of your questions. All I can say is that the only real advantage you might find in buying the Aerosim package over the SGA aircraft, if the DC-10 is your only interest, is the virtual cockpit.Otherwise, I personally think that, as things stand, the freeware DC-10 models, panels and soundsets are a little better rendered than the Aerosim edition, given that you build in the CIVA INS. That said, don't forget that the Aerosim model is a great 'jump-in-and-fly' package; most users find the FMS/INS combination supplied perfectly adequate for enjoyable flying and navigation.The L-1011 is the best of the three aircraft supplied, however, without any doubt. And so it should be, LOL, it was the best in the real world too.MarkMark "Dark Moment" BeaumontVP Fleet, DC-3 AirwaysTeam Member, MAAM-SIM[a href=http://www.swiremariners.com/cathayhk.html" target="_blank]http://www.paxship.com/maamlogo2.jpg[/a]

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I'll chime in here and say that the Aerosim DC-10s are actually 4 differing models if you look at the various engines they included. It's quite nice, and as I said; the models in my view offer choices you dont see on the SGA model. How? Firstly the earliest CF650C engines with the long exhaust nacelle are quite correctly done. {I can't say that on the SGA -30, which looks like a straight -30 inlet with -40 PW JT9D-20J exhaust nozzle fitted on the back. Not a nit-pick, just an observation okay..} The other option on the later production -30s with the CF650C2's featuring a differently profiled engine exhauist area are also correctly done, {again refer to my observation on the SGA model.}The -40 models offer the JT9D-20J and -59A engine models in their correct configurations as seen with Northwest and JAL/JAA respectively. You calso can choose the differing JAL models with middle main landing gear in domestic or international config {domestic had that middle main landing gear pinned as they didnt carry much in fuel weight, while their International configured -40s have all the gear hanging down. All these neat features on the Aerosim 10s are very nice to see. The VC is superb in my view and affords quite an opportunity to play with and add into. The 2D panel isnt bad in my view, I quite like it. Flightmodelwise, both Aerosim -30 and -40 models fly wonderfully. {I really beat the Hades out of a Japan Asia Old-Old Colors -40 repaint at Moses Lake a few weeks ago. {'Figger JAL does it's training there, I fly for a JAL VA..lets have some fun eh!} Sheesh, was competing for landing and takeoff with my AI C-17s from McChord AFB..3 of those were up in the pattern and some General AI traffic..that was a riot. Burned a lot of rubber and JetA that afternoon. A lot of fun..} Feel seems heavy and right, shakedown with fuel consumption on short/medium/long hauls seem about right.The only negative comment I can add is, both the -30 and -40 models appear to be fitted with the smaller forward belly cargo pit door seen on the DC-10-10 models, not the much larger doors fitted on both intercontenental frames. Hope they address that and work up DC-10-10/-15s along with Freighter versions of these birdies soon. RegardsJohn

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Hello John,That was a very good description of the AeroSim DC-10's.Thanks for the execellent report and this should help anyone who has any questions about this model.I have only flown the L1011 and just on my laptop with no joystick. I don't have access to my desktop at the moment, actually the last couple of months.Once again John thanks for the execellent info and in your opinion who it be worth the trouble to install the CIVA INS?Ed

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On that subject, Ed, is there any benefit in installing the CIVA unit in the L-1011 also? The Aerosim INS dovetails neatly with their FMS, of course ... does the CIVA unit? Has anyone tried it? MarkMark "Dark Moment" BeaumontVP Fleet, DC-3 AirwaysTeam Member, MAAM-SIM[a href=http://www.swiremariners.com/cathayhk.html" target="_blank]http://www.paxship.com/maamlogo2.jpg[/a]

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Thanks for those replies. Again since I am only really looking for a single DC-10 (Northwest Airlines) it's hard to justify a $35 package for it. Add to that the fact that I don't use VC's on heavy iron (I prefer 2D Panels for complex aircraft because they can display more info without having to pan around in VC view) and it makes it tougher. Can any of you comment on the level of systems simulation of the AeroSim DC10's? Naturally the SGA one has systems simulation equal to that of default aircraft (i.e. no APU, Cabin Pressurization, etc) but it does have fuel management. What kinds of systems simulation are present on the DC-10? And can you confirm that the DC-10 has an FMS like the L1011?I have not yet played much with the CIVA INS unit but finally got around to testing it out... pretty neat. I don't know how detailed the INS that the AeroSim planes have are... but apparently (I say apparently because I don't really know how to use it fully yet and also I have no experience with the real thing :)) it is a pretty complete simulation of the unit and is very detailed. It should work with any aircraft that uses the default MS autopilot and has heading hold functionality... but I don't know exactly how the FMS on the L1011 plays in to the equation. One big advantage of the CIVA INS is that you can simulate and link up to 3 INS units together like exists on real aircraft. This actually matters as far as flying goes too since with 3 INS units you can average the drift between them and increase the accuracy of navigation. Again I guess it depends on how detailed you want to get in terms of operations vs simming.Going a little off-topic here: I recently acquired the Flight1 Iron Knuckles DC-9 aircraft. So far it seems pretty good although I have not flown it "for real" yet. Only "messing around" so far. But it looks like it's a great package with a very detailed systems simulation component to it also. Anyways I spent the better part of this afternoon messing with the panel. By default the panel is set up to be like it would back in the heyday of the DC-9. No GPS, all steam gauges, etc. You can opt to "cheat" and include the default FS GPS... something I opted not to do. But I have been trying to "upgrade" the panel to something that would be more representative of DC9's in operation today. I installed Lee Hetherington's TCAS gauge in place of the old analog VSI (even edited the bmp so it blends in nicely ;)) and also installed the ACS-GPS. I had read on a simming website (website by a former SAS DC9 captain) who said that the ACS-GPS was decently close to what they used on the real DC-9's. From what it looks like, however, the ACS-GPS is basically just a non-graphical GPS unit which you can load a flightplan into and it will (by way of using the A/P HDG mode) fly the points in order.I was wondering though... anyone here know what kind of navigation system would likely be used on a DC-9 operating today? For example, what does Northwest Airlines put on their DC-9's? I looked on airliners.net and (in addition to the LCD-TCAS) they apparently use some kind of GPS or INS or FMC unit. I can't make out exactly what it is. It does not have enough keys to be a FMC (not enough buttons for the letter-pad) nor do I see LSKs either. But the screen is larger and does not look like it is an INS... which leaves GPS? (But I thought aircraft were not allowed to use GPS as the primary mode of navigation?) Anyways, if anyone knows what is used for old medium to short haul aircraft navigation I'd love to know!Ruahrc

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Thanks for those replies. Again since I am only really looking for a single DC-10 (Northwest Airlines) it's hard to justify a $35 package for it. Add to that the fact that I don't use VC's on heavy iron (I prefer 2D Panels for complex aircraft because they can display more info without having to pan around in VC view) and it makes it tougher. Can any of you comment on the level of systems simulation of the AeroSim DC10's? Naturally the SGA one has systems simulation equal to that of default aircraft (i.e. no APU, Cabin Pressurization, etc) but it does have fuel management. What kinds of systems simulation are present on the DC-10? And can you confirm that the DC-10 has an FMS like the L1011?I have not yet played much with the CIVA INS unit but finally got around to testing it out... pretty neat. I don't know how detailed the INS that the AeroSim planes have are... but apparently (I say apparently because I don't really know how to use it fully yet and also I have no experience with the real thing :)) it is a pretty complete simulation of the unit and is very detailed. It should work with any aircraft that uses the default MS autopilot and has heading hold functionality... but I don't know exactly how the FMS on the L1011 plays in to the equation. One big advantage of the CIVA INS is that you can simulate and link up to 3 INS units together like exists on real aircraft. This actually matters as far as flying goes too since with 3 INS units you can average the drift between them and increase the accuracy of navigation. Again I guess it depends on how detailed you want to get in terms of operations vs simming.Going a little off-topic here: I recently acquired the Flight1 Iron Knuckles DC-9 aircraft. So far it seems pretty good although I have not flown it "for real" yet. Only "messing around" so far. But it looks like it's a great package with a very detailed systems simulation component to it also. Anyways I spent the better part of this afternoon messing with the panel. By default the panel is set up to be like it would back in the heyday of the DC-9. No GPS, all steam gauges, etc. You can opt to "cheat" and include the default FS GPS... something I opted not to do. But I have been trying to "upgrade" the panel to something that would be more representative of DC9's in operation today. I installed Lee Hetherington's TCAS gauge in place of the old analog VSI (even edited the bmp so it blends in nicely ;)) and also installed the ACS-GPS. I had read on a simming website (website by a former SAS DC9 captain) who said that the ACS-GPS was decently close to what they used on the real DC-9's. From what it looks like, however, the ACS-GPS is basically just a non-graphical GPS unit which you can load a flightplan into and it will (by way of using the A/P HDG mode) fly the points in order.I was wondering though... anyone here know what kind of navigation system would likely be used on a DC-9 operating today? For example, what does Northwest Airlines put on their DC-9's? I looked on airliners.net and (in addition to the LCD-TCAS) they apparently use some kind of GPS or INS or FMC unit. I can't make out exactly what it is. It does not have enough keys to be a FMC (not enough buttons for the letter-pad) nor do I see LSKs either. But the screen is larger and does not look like it is an INS... which leaves GPS? (But I thought aircraft were not allowed to use GPS as the primary mode of navigation?) Anyways, if anyone knows what is used for old medium to short haul aircraft navigation I'd love to know!Ruahrc

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