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LAdamson

FS2004 COF and ground handling....

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Everybody knows how flawed fs2002 is regarding aircraft handling while not airborne. True masterpieces such as RealAir's SF260 suffer a LOT from the fact that FS has been lacking an appropriate physics model of ground friction (fs4 did have it, as there were in fact two models - ground and air - and the simulation switched from one to the other as soon as one got airborne!!!).In fs2002 if you want a realisticaly dampened prop airplane in terms of Yaw, it will "dance" sideways over the runway as you increase throttle and the takeoff run starts, or if there is the slightest crosswind component. If you switch to an external view you'll easily see your aircraft drifting sideways with it's undercarriage being - should I say - dragged across the rw or taxiway.Can any of the lucky guys already with a copy of fs2004 confirm that this has been ironed out on this new version????Thx in advance for your answers!

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Does FS2004 COF have a realistic turbulence model? I believe you know what I mean, unless you've completely disabled it through the use of that mighty FSUIPC, but I would love to fly aircraft across realistic turbulence zones...

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We will have to wait for one of those with a press release to tell us. Any of those "lucky guys" testing FS2004 are under strict agreements not to discuss the program. If someone does respond and they don't have a press release copy, they are either guessing, not telling the truth, or being just as rotten by violating an NDA.-John

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I doubt they have changed any flight models or characteristics on ground or in air. IMO all they did was add new planes and few more tweaks and some new clouds and sky color to make FS2002 into FS2004.I hope they improved the flight models and such but I really doubt it.Sorry to sound negative but that is how I see FS2004. Like others say..you get one totaly new and improved version and then you get a version with a few additions and fixes (like a patch) then you get another totaly new and imroved version etc...Mike

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From the videos of planes in flight, which I have seen at their website..either they used novice pilots, or it's the same un-tweaked flight models. I personally expect to tweak them..with the same old clunky equations/algorithms to deal with.

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Most FS users don't even notice how crap the ground handling is :(This is what I mean:Airliners with HUGE turning circles :( Compare FS turning circles to reality and it's really bad!Aircraft that slide like a police car in some 1970s movie :-lol Crosswind handling is hilarious ..... 18 wheel drift in a 747?!?!? :-lol ... in reality, the tires would fail :-lolThen again, some FS users wouldn't care ..... they taxi 747s across the grass, as if those concrete strips are for emergency vehicles or something http://bb.bbboy.net/emoticons/rotflmao.gif

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I, for one, most certainly *do* notice the bad ground-handling of FS2002 Pro and it is a PITA!I, for one, will not dash right out to buy FS2004 unless and until I hear good things from those hereabouts with fatter wallets and bleeding-edge installation ethics.Mike

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The "holiday on ice" aspect is really noticeable. In other flight simulators an airplane will bump and veer with the screech of burning rubber if you touch down with a sideslip. In FS the plane just slides sideways as if it were one castor rollers. The MS range of flight simulators really needs some lateral element to the ground handling. Wheels roll forward or backwards and resist sideways movement :-)Hans Petter

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>The "holiday on ice" aspect is really noticeable. In other>flight simulators an airplane will bump and veer with the>screech of burning rubber if you touch down with a sideslip.>In FS the plane just slides sideways as if it were one castor>rollers. The MS range of flight simulators really needs some>lateral element to the ground handling. Wheels roll forward or>backwards and resist sideways movement :-)>No offense, but other simulators such as X-Plane, Fly, and perhaps a few others I can't think of at the moment, don't portray ANY of the left drift tendencies on the ground as well as FS2002. My other favorite is IL-2 Sturmovick for ground handling.After reading the original post and replies, I feel that there is only "half-rights" here. My worst cases of un-realistic drift with FS2002 has been some instances during the last bit of approach with heavier aircraft. I seldom have any of the takeoff problems listed in the original post, thanks to "rudder pedals".I've decided that many issues are caused by three reasons. 1-- Havn't flown a real airplane ---- or2-- Been much too long since flying a real airplane ---- or3 -- The one I suspect most is ----- no rudder pedals!In the past, I've tested a number of flight models that have terrible yaw tendencies on the takeoff roll. Even to the point of not being able to takeoff before it's completely off the runway. But with the default Cessna's, the SF260, and especially 3rd party aircraft such as RealAir's mods for the 182, or Dreamfleets Archer/Cardinal -------- I don't see near the wild problems described in the above postings.And BTW ---- what other simulations besides FS2002 with RealAir files, and perhaps IL-2 Sturmovik are actually capable of a well controlled sideslip?L.Adamson

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For the record, I've got CH-Pro rudder pedals here and so I'm not making these comments from a "twist grip."Some, not all, 3rd party aircraft are woefully lax in the ground-handling arena.Still, I am most grateful, forgiving, and appreciative of the freeware add-ons, which is only right. ;-)Mike USN Retired

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>For the record, I've got CH-Pro rudder pedals here and so I'm>not making these comments from a "twist grip.">You need five or 10 year old "thrustmaster" analog pedals connected by Y-cable through an old Saitek joystick, in tandem with a new Saitek USB stick---- to get the "full" effect. Sorry about the CH-Pro's :)L.Adamson

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Well, CH Pro pedals here too. And regarding the "holiday on ice" or lack of sideways traction aspect--my other flight simulator is Flight Unlimited 3. With this one a plane may topple over if you touch down while drifting sideways. If it's just a bit, as a normal substandard landing, the plane will jolt and jerk. It could very well be that most flight simulators lack a code that stops wheels from sliding sideways.Hans Petter

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>Well, CH Pro pedals here too. And regarding the "holiday on>ice" or lack of sideways traction aspect--my other flight>simulator is Flight Unlimited 3. With this one a plane may>topple over if you touch down while drifting sideways. If it's>just a bit, as a normal substandard landing, the plane will>jolt and jerk. It could very well be that most flight>simulators lack a code that stops wheels from sliding>sideways.>FUIII DOES go a bit farther in simulating "extremes". But at least the MS aircraft will topple over, because I did exactly that, just before writing the "rebuttle" :) Was using the SF260 at the time.L.Adamson

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Thank you for all your comments.Answering Mr. L. Adamson, I should point out that I have been using CH Flightstick + Thrustmaster RCS for quite a long time.Regarding the way fs2002 behaves on the ground, as a user of many other sims, I have to disagree with you regarding there being no good examples. I can list IL2 (of course, and don't find the slighthest comparison between it and MSFS...), Flight Unlimited 2 & 3, Airline Simulator 2 (wich remarkably reproduces ground static and dynamic friction coeficients IMHO far better than any other flightsim of it's type. Fly2 and X-Plane are yet other examples of sims that do a much better job than MSFS2002 in this area...To suggest you a test, place the Real Air SF260 at the rw treshold, no wind, and advance the throttle. As you may know, the reason she sideslips so well in the air, and also pretty much does what one might call a spin is because the Real Air team has set her yaw stability coefficient way bellow what is used on default and most add-on aircraft for fs2002. That was certainly the best compromisse they could find, but it has the drawback of "enhancing" the miserable behaviour while on ground.On the opposite side of the "spectrum" there are aircraft, like Wilco's A320 PIC, that behave very well during takeoff or landing, even under strong crosswinds. Since it pretends to model Fly By Wire technology we can live with it, but fail an engine and there will be almost unoticeable effects - no rudder input needed!!! This AIR models have huge yaw stability coefficients.Adamson, as you advance the throttle, please get to the external view from 6:00, and while you fight the slipstream and torque effects, look at how stupidly she sideslips ON the runway, with the undercarriage some times being draged at an angle of almost 30 degres from the rw axis!!! Is this good/acceptable?????I am also a (proud) ELITE user. I use it to practise IFR, and I love it for that pourpose, but it has a lousy ground handling - yet, I do prefer the ELITE way because at least I do not get draged sideways during my takeoff run...As a final note, AS2 is probably the sim that better models the effects of contaminated runways on the way aircraft behave during landing, takeoff or while taxiing, with strong crosswinds and slipery surfaces (rain, snow or icy conditions of various degrees are simulated!!!). Of course, on an icy or snow covered, or even "very wet" rw you should expect that kind of sideslip while on ground, but in fs2002 we all know such effects are not modelled - right?

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Sorry, but I would really apreciate to know if this other poor area of MSFS will or will not get better with COF...

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