Anyone know how to change the roll rate of an aircraft? Is it in the air file? I looked at it with air ed but could not find much that looked like an roll rate. May have missed it though.JimCYWG

In the flight_tuning section of the aircraft.cfg, increase the aileron_effectiveness parameter--much easier than working with the .air file.-John

Thanks JimCYWG

>In the flight_tuning section of the aircraft.cfg, increase>the aileron_effectiveness parameter--much easier than working>with the .air file.>>-JohnHi John:I've had my first attempt at changing anything in any .cfg files over the past 48 hours or so... but when I went in the water I jumped in the deep end from my perspective.I have recently returned to MSFS after a long hiatus away because I am too much of a realist... real world ATP (now retired long ago). I love to fly the old classics with which I am so familiar.Your mention of changing items in the aircraft.cfg file, rather than attempting things in the .air file triggered some thoughts I had this afternoon while trying to digest a few of the items in various aircraft.cfg files for the same model aircraft. For instance, I have downloaded several supposedly different L-049 and L-1049 (Connie and SuperConnie) packages. They all fly so differently so I figured something was amiss. I hadn't changed anything.I noticed in a comparison of just 2 of the .cfg files today that there were 97 differences in particular elements... items that would change the flight dynamics. Elevator effectiveness, w&b points, pitch stability... I could go on and on.Can you tell me, or point me to a reference, that would give some idea as to how authors arrive at some of the figures they do for the .cfg file... and, how do the .air file and .cfg file relate to one another?I am now very much intrigued with getting at least one of these birds flying the way I remembered. I have altered a couple of the numbers, some by only .1%.How does one determine what constitutes the ingredient of four consecutive values for one item? For instance: Light.0=0,5,13,0. Is there a reference book as to what the 0,5,13,0 denote individually?I searched the library for an hour or more this afternoon and could find nothing. Of course I'll admit I'm not as well acquainted with the search function as I should be.Any help or lead would be much appreciated.donmacPlease be assured I am comparing L-1049 w/ L-1049, not L-049 w/ L-1049.:-)

Please forgive me for asking such detailed questions... I had been lurking much of the day in the design forum and thought I was still there.Glad I don't fly for a living anymore... the passengers might wonder how we got where we are.. I'd probably forget where we were supposed to be!!donmac

Some of the best aircraft.cfg file references are found within the default MSFS aircraft, such as the Cessna aircraft. For instance, contact points are broken down quite well. I use a different method for coming to many of my parameters--I know the end result is that many of my aircraft FDE's have a "feel" like Rob Young's work or Steve Small's, although that was unintended in my early days of experimentation. It wasn't until I downloaded one of their files that I said "hey, that feels like what I've been trying to achieve".Freeflightdesign is the best location for FDE resources, and they grow almost every day. Although there's some rough guidelines, everyone has their own "style" to the aircraft they design. I tend to like to design my aircraft with less of an "on rails" sensation and I also try to introduce some things I discovered when I took lessons many years back. One example is "reaction time". There's no such parameter in the .air or aircraft.cfg files, yet we all have one. Even if our aircraft stops in the roll axis on a dime, our reaction time may not stop it as quickly--not many of us are fighter jocks. I found when I flew, if I wanted to stop my roll at a 20 degree bank--I usually ended at 25 or 30 degrees with a glaring instructor. I was like many new, nervous students I guess. I will be resuming lessons soon after twenty years, and I wonder how my experience today will compare back then. Anyway, I moved away from my intended topic... I model reaction time by increasing MOI values in the aircraft.cfg to levels higher than many of the suggested norms. But the end result is it feels more like aircraft and pilot are modeled together.Some of the best learning is trial and error, btw... Create a backup of an aircraft.cfg, and use the original as a working copy to bump some numbers up, some down, etc... You can play with some pretty large increases and see how your controls react, for example, or whether your jet spools up quickly or not.I suggest a novice see what they can do with the aircraft.cfg first before trying to play with the .air file. There's a few exceptions--especially related to engine and lift curves and spin potential of the aircraft, but most of the aircraft's "personality" can be manipulated through the aircraft.cfg.-John

Thank you John for the details and for the personal viewpoint. I shall have a close look at what comes with MSFS2004, especially in relation to the Cessna you mention.Do you design your aircraft from scratch utilizing the best data you can locate? ... or do you take an existing aircraft that doesn't feel proper to you and seek to tweak it.It is very interesting to me that you mention the MOI values because those were the ones that certainly made me take a very close look at the differences in value in the two files I compared today.With flight simmers penchant for reality I would think that, since many have never piloted a real plane, and an infinitesially small percentage would have ever flown (as PIC or SIC) a heavy jet aircraft, they truly wouldn't know what should feel "right" and what is just easy to fly with a joystick.I appreciate the mention of particular individual names you have mentioned as it gives me somewhere to look. I did visit the Freeflightdesign site and learned a lot just by lurking.There are obviously some very talented individuals and teams, artists and engineers really, who are producing some fantastic material. I appreciate everyone of them, you included.donmac

"Do you design your aircraft from scratch utilizing the best data you can locate? ... or do you take an existing aircraft that doesn't feel proper to you and seek to tweak it."I do both. Almost all aircraft I download I tweak to some extent to get them to "feel" right. There's a ton of different controllers, setups, etc and I sometimes think FDE complaints when it comes to feel don't take that into account. It's hard to make the perfect FDE because not everyone has the same setup.Many who design FDE's for jets--myself included, will invite someone with experience to try it out and provide feedback. What surprises me is how many who've told me I got the feel right. I've never flown a jet, but I have flown in them with more than a million miles logged. I think that's helped give me a "sixth sense" when it comes to watching how the aircraft reacts to the control surface movements (I almost always sit where I can enjoy the "show" the wing surface movements provide during flight).I have made mistakes with the aircraft.cfg--I will warn you to watch out. If you make the mistake at the wrong point of the design process, you end up with trash. Such was the case in my FDE for the Dreamwings Q400. I pasted weight values for the Q400 from the web, and they had a comma. All my FDE work was based on that error--fuel burn, roll rate, and so on. Problem is, the weight was shaved by tens of thousands of pounds by that one error. So if you are trying to create something for public consumption, be careful. I was crucified for that mistake, and it was a freeware project. It's the last FDE I've tried to help with mainly due to the harsh remarks and emails I received. But I'll gladly offer advice and steer you towards better advice than mine :)

John,As one who fools a little (and I mean a little!) with the config files, I'd like to add:Don't ever worry about the nay-sayers. They'll complain, critisize, condemn, then not do a d*mn thing to help and b*tch all the more despite your work being free.Please remember this: for everyone who finds fault and speaks their mind, there are ten who enjoy, and remain silent. That's just human nature.Thanks for the above tips...makes me want to do some more tweaking!Dan

>"Do you design your aircraft from scratch utilizing the best>data you can locate? ... or do you take an existing aircraft>that doesn't feel proper to you and seek to tweak it.">>I do both. Almost all aircraft I download I tweak to some>extent to get them to "feel" right. There's a ton of>different controllers, setups, etc and I sometimes think FDE>complaints when it comes to feel don't take that into account.> It's hard to make the perfect FDE because not everyone has>the same setup.>>Many who design FDE's for jets--myself included, will invite>someone with experience to try it out and provide feedback. >What surprises me is how many who've told me I got the feel>right. I've never flown a jet, but I have flown in them with>more than a million miles logged. I think that's helped give>me a "sixth sense" when it comes to watching how the aircraft>reacts to the control surface movements (I almost always sit>where I can enjoy the "show" the wing surface movements>provide during flight).>>I have made mistakes with the aircraft.cfg--I will warn you to>watch out. If you make the mistake at the wrong point of the>design process, you end up with trash. Such was the case in>my FDE for the Dreamwings Q400. I pasted weight values for>the Q400 from the web, and they had a comma. All my FDE work>was based on that error--fuel burn, roll rate, and so on. >Problem is, the weight was shaved by tens of thousands of>pounds by that one error. So if you are trying to create>something for public consumption, be careful. I was crucified>for that mistake, and it was a freeware project. It's the>last FDE I've tried to help with mainly due to the harsh>remarks and emails I received. But I'll gladly offer advice>and steer you towards better advice than mine :)>As has been said, there are perhaps far more of us who appreciate the fine work of many of you who put forth your best efforts to improve something for all of us, but more often than not, we fail to compliment you on their work. Keep plugging... know you will!I also know the feel of the aircraft I have flown in real life. I know what the Connie feels like at 800' above the threshold, flown at the proper airspeed and configuration, and I haven't found one that is very close in all the files I have downloaded. That's what got me started in searching out the various .cfg files.But one of my initial queries has not yet been addressed... what is the relationship between the aircraft.cfg and the .air files? If the .air file requires a program (which I don't have) to decompile, it must contain the code for the basic parameters of the flight dynamics. Perhaps it runs routines that accept arguments from the aircraft.cfg text file and implements those on an individual flight basis.This is an entirely different aspect of flight simming. One that did not enter my thought patterns until the past couple of days.Thanks again. I'd appreciate any insight, or directions as to where I might obtain what I seek. I'll visit the freeflight site again soon... and perhaps often.donmac

>>>>Thanks again. I'd appreciate any insight, or directions as to where I might obtain what I seek.<<<http://perso.wanadoo.fr/hsors/FS_Soft/index.htmland here:http://www.avhistory.org/scripts/MegaBBS/f...w.asp?forumid=5That should satisfy your appetite for information, at least for a little while.Douglas

>>>>>Thanks again. I'd appreciate any insight, or directions>as to where I might obtain what I seek.<<<<>>Try here:>>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/hsors/FS_Soft/index.html>>and here:>>http://www.avhistory.org/scripts/MegaBBS/f...w.asp?forumid=5>>That should satisfy your appetite for information, at least>for a little while.>>DouglasThanks Douglas:Yes, that should be enough for a while. I always find it a wonder when I search, and search and search, and failing, ask someone. They know HOW TO search and find the gems. Appreciate your effort.donmac

You're welcome.>>>>They know HOW TO search and find the gems.<<<

>snipped<>But one of my initial queries has not yet been addressed...>what is the relationship between the aircraft.cfg and the .air>files? If the .air file requires a program (which I don't>have) to decompile, it must contain the code for the basic>parameters of the flight dynamics. Perhaps it runs routines>that accept arguments from the aircraft.cfg text file and>implements those on an individual flight basis.>>snipped<>donmacMSFS flight dynamics engine requires lots of information to simulate an aircraft. There are lots of requirements ranging from aircraft geometry to fluid pressures and suspension stiffness. All this data must be stored in memory cells (much like spreadsheet cells).The .air file provides the data to fill all these cells. If the data is not provided by the .air file (or aircraft.cfg file), then the sim engine provides a default value.The aircraft.cfg file provides a simple and easy method to input some data or override the data (or lack of) in the .air file.The aircraft.cfg file is not all encompassing, that is it cannot replace the .air file or change all the data that the .air file inputs. The .cfg file is more like a layman's tool to easily make adjustments.Douglas' link above points you to the critical tools needed to get at the really technical stuff (like roll moments vs roll rates). I also would recommend downloading the Aircraft Container SDK which explains the parameters in the aircraft.cfg file.http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimul...wnloads_sdk.aspHave fun :-)