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pointy56

Flight plan missing SID/STAR transitions

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I have been been experimenting with adding departure and arrival procedures to flight plans and have found something that I think may be a bug.

Previously my flight plans went <Departure airport> <First waypoint> --- <Final waypoint> <Destination airport> - this works well for me and the saved FSX flight plan is complete.
However, if I add a departure procedure, ending at the first waypoint, and an arrival procedure, beginning at the final waypoint, the 'standard' FSX flight plan does not include either waypoint - this seems incorrect to me.

Is this intentional, or is this a bug?  I'm happy to provide sample files if required - I am running LNM 2.6.11

(I realise that I can export the complete flight plan, including all of the departure and arrival intersections/waypoints, in FSX format, but then I need to manually edit the file to remove the extra departure/arrival entries)

Overall I think that LNM is a fantastic piece of software which adds immeasurably to my flight sim experience - thank you Alex.

Regards,
Martin

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Not sure how to send a file in this forum, so I've sent you a cut down example by email.

Thanks,
Martin

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Posted (edited)

It's a standard LNM behaviour, when SID/STAR is chosen the last/first point that exist in procedure is changed from normal fix point to procedure point.

So if for example flight plan looks like:  ABLA DCT POINTA DCT ....... POINTZ DCT   BLABLA** (where all fixes are in black colors)
and then we choose SID ABLA2Z and STAR BLABLA5K, then in flight plan black coloured ABLA (as fix point) will be changed to blue coloured ABLA (as point of procedure),
the same with BLABLA (black->blue). When the procedures would be deleted from flight plan then points also disappear because they are part of procedures.

Similar with export, in this case above flight plan after adding procedures will be exported as ABLA2Z POINTA DCT ....... POINTZ   BLABLA5K.

I use own method to avoid this problem during exporting flight plans - after creating the route I export normal flight plan, at this case ABLA DCT POINTA DCT ....... POINTZ DCT   BLABLA ,
then for flying under LNM I add SID and STAR to know how to perform given procedures 🙂


Regards,
Piotr

**absolutely fictional points 😛

Edited by ppgas

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That's not how it's working for FSX flight plans, that's the problem.

In your example the LNM plan ABLA2Z POINTA DCT ....... POINTZ BLABLA5K is exported as POINTA DCT ....... POINTZ without either the ABLA/BLABLA waypoints or procedures.

FSX flight plans don't include the procedures so I feel they should include the entry/exit waypoints.

Thanks,
Martin

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, pointy56 said:

That's not how it's working for FSX flight plans, that's the problem.

In your example the LNM plan ABLA2Z POINTA DCT ....... POINTZ BLABLA5K is exported as POINTA DCT ....... POINTZ without either the ABLA/BLABLA waypoints or procedures.

FSX flight plans don't include the procedures so I feel they should include the entry/exit waypoints.

OK. So the problem is with exporting route to FSX FMC,  that's why this misunderstanding 🙂

IMHO it should be no problem with exporting route for FMC that hasn't got written procedures - simply enter to menu "File/Export options/" and choose/enable all three possible options:
-Export waypoints for approaches (default set to none/disabled);
-Export waypoints for SID and STAR  (default set to none/disabled);
-Export waypoints for airways  (default enabled);

Since this moment LNM will export whole procedures SIDs, STARs and approaches as a sequences of waypoints instead of procedure names.
Example flight plan will be visible under FMC as a sequence of all route waypoints including procedures:
first_point_ABLA2Z DCT point2_ABLA2Z .... ABLA DCT POINTA DCT ....... POINTZ DCT BLABLA DCT point2_BLABLA5K ..... last_point_BLABLAB5K

Above solution should solve your problems 😄

Regards,
Piotr

Edited by ppgas

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@pointy56Thanks. Got the file.

I did not look at the details yet but I think SID endpoints and STAR/approach startpoints should be left in when exporting to some formats. This is even more needed if the formats do not support loading of procedures like FSX PLN. Not needed in X-Plane FMS or LNMPLN which allow loading of procedures.

I changed a lot in the export recently for 2.6 and as a result some small bugs might crept in.

Maybe use "File" -> "Export Options" as a workaround. Not sure if this helps.

Alex

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Posted (edited)

@albar965 Alex, if I could suggest you - maybe it could be better to change default LNM behaviour and instead of exchanging fix point with procedure points, it could be "glued"?

So example flight plan could be displayed under LNM as:  
1) raw route - ABLA DCT POINTA DCT ....... POINTZ DCT   BLABLA
2) route after adding procedures - ABLA2Z** ABLA DCT POINTA DCT ....... POINTZ DCT   BLABLA BLABLA5K** - at this option in flight plan window on the left points ABLA and BLABLA are displayed twiced - first is blue ABLA (as procedure fix point) second is black ABLA (route fix point). Similar with BLABLA in reverse order (black fix point, blue procedure point).
In this way it should be more easily delete procedure from flight plan (blue points  will disappear but black leave untouched),  similar could be in export option.

 

Regards,
Piotr

**of course, at flight plan window procedures are written/displayed as sequences of waypoints like at this moment

Edited by ppgas

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4 hours ago, ppgas said:

Alex, if I could suggest you - maybe it could be better to change default LNM behaviour and instead of exchanging fix point with procedure points, it could be "glued"?

It is glued for some export formats and for some not and it's even more fun since this also depends if a exit point leads right on an airway for some formats. Not the case in the plan below.
Internally I remove the points to avoid showing the duplicates but this is not relevant for exported files.

The X-Plane FMS and all its GPS can load procedures without issues. You'll get duplicates if you add the exit and entry points to the exported files. Therefore you'd like to export something like EGKK LAM5P BPK UN601 POTON XAPOS POL INPIP EGPH into a FMS plan file. Note the missing LAM exit point before BPK.

For other formats or ones which cannot load procedures like you'd rather export EGKK LAM BPK UN601 POTON XAPOS POL INPIP EGPH to avoid a gap at the SID exit. A user has to add the SID in the simulator.

Hope I got this right.🙂

Alex

 

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Posted (edited)

In general I haven't got any problems using exports of raw routes to other formats and using "undo option" to rollback flight plan to previous state when I want remove SID or STAR.
I've thought rather about users that don't know these all tricks 🙂

Regards,
Piotr

 

Edited by ppgas

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Hi Alex,

Your interpretation of what I was expecting is correct for a format that doesn't support SID/STAR - for your example the default output would be EGKK LAM BPK UN601 POTON XAPOS POL INPIP EGPH (in the example I sent you I would expect to see ... INPIP TLA EGPH)
It should still be possible to export a plan including the full SID/STAR if required, using the multi-export option with sub-options selected.

Thanks,
Martin

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