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Guest R_Driscoll

Yellow snow and palettes.

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Many people have complained about the Seattle palette over the years. I tried extracting the palette and adjusting it, and I've put some comparison shots below to invite comment. Things to note are the bluer water, less yellow trees, whiter snow and beaches.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/38577.jpgOn the rooftop - BEFOREhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/38578.jpgOn the rooftop - NEW BLUE HUEhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/38579.jpgLake Kachess - BEFOREhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/38580.jpgLake Kachess - NEW BLUE HUEI am very interested in comments. I know its hard to judge from a couple of pictures, but if you think this is worthwhile, I suggest that maybe Hans Petter and Jon Point could do some professional palette adjustment using PSP. What I have done doesn't solve everything - you can see that the snow in shadows is still yellowish. Should we try to improve the palette, or "not tamper with perfection"?.RobD

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Judging from the screenshots Lake Kachess looks good with any palette but the yellow snow is a bit too, well yellow :-)If we can make the peak of Mount Rainier white without any adverse effects down at sea level this looks promising.best regards,Hans Petter

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Rob,Bloody brilliant! As a Sydneysider like you, I am well accustomed to a 'blue hue'. Truth is, the mountains around Kachess now remind of our beloved Blue Mountains, west of Sydney!I have also been working on a mod to improve terrain quality at a distance (not terrain textures but actual TERRAIN!). To cut a long story short, it's a simple cfg file mod which allows one to see the Cascades from SEA (like in reality) and also, a clear view of Mt Rainier from Renton! It DOES impact framerates a bit but hey! One could always load less packages... It's a result of my annoyance with mountains suddenly popping up or the horizon 'adjusting itself' continually.1. Go to Renton, page up to 3kft and look at Mt Rainier (if you can see it). Take a screenshot for reference.2. Try this line in your cfg file:opt_terrain_detail 999Obviously, replace the existing line! Now, BEFORE you go trying it, even touching the 'terrain detail' slider in the options screen will reset it to '103' (so don't touch it). 3.Go to Renton, page up to 3kft and look at Mt Rainier NOW ;)As to getting blue without yellow, you can get more 'blue' by either reducing yellow OR reducing red (in a CMYK pallete mixer). If you are using an RGB mixer only, it is harder. Maybe I could try some palette mixing for you to try out (after rebuilding everything TWICE, I am so far behind schedule that I barely have time to finish anything :-( ).Nothin' like a bit of progress :-waveJon Point*************************(effyouthree@hotmail.com)*************************

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Rob,My dad taught me at a tender age to stay away from yellow snow. :-lolIt must take a awful large sasquach to make that much of it! :-eek(Nice work sir.)

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Rob,Just for interest's sake, snow is rarely ALL white! Sure, with a couple of metres of powder over it, it IS white but, at any time of the year when snow isn't falling, it rapidly goes from a blue-white, through yellow(ish) to brown as the snow melts. Obviously, from the amount of snow in FU3's Seattle area, the images were taken in Spring (if Autumn/Fall there would be lots of red in the trees), which is just when the snow changes colour. To see large streaks of yellow/brown running down mountainsides is therefore quite normal - it's just the groundwater running through the lower layers, carrying soil with it.As an interesting aside, some snow near Mt Kosciusko in Australia turns pink :-eek in Summer! And yes, there IS snow there in Summer - I've snowboarded on it! It's caused by airborne microbes which lie dormant in the snow and come back to life when the temperature rises - so I'm told.:-waveJon Point*************************(effyouthree@hotmail.com)*************************

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RobD,I think your new snow is definatly beter, yep definatly.The lighter yelow at the edge of the lake, I can liv with.Not good not bad just a little diferant is all.I am a bit conserned about the green, it looks a bit les vivid, les vibrant.It even looks a little bit gray.But its dificalt for me to tel cus your useing haze and I never do.Im stil marvaling over the better sky colers you gave us reesently.Its all very exiting.Hans,>promising.

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Well Hans has volunteered to have a look at palettes - he was very quick! Jon, this is amazing about the increased viewing distance - I can't wait to try that tonight. And Jon, Tom, thanks for all the explanations about why snow can be yellow - huskies, sasquats etc. Hmmm. I needed to know that. For the moment, I don't want to explore any deeper into yellow snow.OK, so we can't have scratches. Darn. But still, surely the idea of an enormous glidernut glaring down from above is worth exploring?This thread has been a lot of fun! My apologies though for taking us off topic (but as soon as Tom's not looking, I'll probably do it again).RobD.

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John/Folks,The terrain fudge makes little difference above '999'. I tried it at a couple of higher settings (2048&4096) and, whilst it decreased framerate even more (proving it was doing something), it didn't make any VISIBLE difference. The optimum level is between 499 and 999 I think. Even 499 gives you Mt Rainier from Renton but, if you want the Cascades from SEA, use the '999'.I'm so chuffed, I'm going for a fly...:-waveJon Point*************************(effyouthree@hotmail.com)*************************

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I've played with the resreg for a couple of hours. I found 14 palettes and skewed them all 10% towards blue. I got white windsocks.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/38807.jpgThen I went for an 8 percent increase in blue and got brown windsocks.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/38808.jpgI took off and looked around. The snow is more white but I may try to up the color saturation since I think it looks a bit bland.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/38810.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/38811.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/38812.jpgOK, I've reached the maximum number of attachments. An interesting question is, what are all these palettes for? Maybe each one is meant for a defined range of elevation, meaning that color is supposed to be more skewed towards yellow/red as we approach sea level. If so, it may not be a good idea to skew all levels. We'd have to identify which palette is being used for the higher levels (Mnt Rainier) and skew this one towards blue.best regards,Hans Petter

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Hans-Petter,Great to see some (other) experimentation going on ;)I believe the different palettes have to do with time of day and season. Obviously, with only 256 colours, one couldn't fade from say, midday lighting to night time without a lot of strangeness. So, they use sucessive palettes to do it. Watch the Dash-8 panel whilst holding down the key. Oh! 65k colours? No, FU3 only EVER displays 256 colours per image plane. This is why we see dithering in our 65k cockpits ;)I'm not sure if they are all implemented though. This would be easy to check. Simply replace a lot of colours in one palette with red (255,0,0), another with blue (0,0,255) etc. As you cycle through seasons and times, the palette should become immediately obvious :-eek:-waveJon Point*************************(effyouthree@hotmail.com)*************************

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I haven't tried weird colors yet but I upped the saturation by 15%. This produced dull blue windsocks while the terrain stayed about the same.We can certainly make Mount Rainier white but there is a price to pay in terms of less vibrant hues. I may try to increase the red a bit.best regards,Hans Petter

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I agree with Jon that you need to identify WHICH palettes are relevant. I only changed the second one in Resreg, since I thought the first one was for models, not scenery. To increase "vibrancy", is it possible to increase contrast? Also instead of increasing blue, what happens when you decrease red and yellow together?RobD.

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Hans Petter The diferant culers of the wind sak seems to hapen imidiatly after I hav flown in anuther region, ie, (broun), (dul derty blou), (bright blou), (bright red).But the only tims I hav ever seen the whight wind sok is when "for what ever reezen" the3D ACCELERATION DRIVER is terned off in options.I think you will hav to avoid looking at the wind sok, and sum of the add on Fled modelsthat hav been dun in a diferant way to all the rest, and consentrate on the teranecolors only, in order to discuver or understand what palet dus what, and why.glidernut.:-wave

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Jon wrote that the range of palettes was probably used to create the 24 hours cycle of light conditions. Now Rob D says that he thinks that the first palette is for models and Glidernut says that windsocks tend to change when you switch between regions.I think our first focus should be to identify the reason for all these palettes and which one is being used for what. Would it be possible to research this using a hex code viewer? Otherwise it will all be trial and error. I may back up my current resreg tweak and try making that first palette totally red. Then, if some objects turn out red we have a clue and likewise if one time of day suddenly turns red.Hans Petter

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Yes Hans, or even better, (after backing up the original file), make one palette completely red, the other completely green, the other blue and so on; then run the sim and you'll know at once which palette does what! :-) It will be hard to fly then anyway... ;-)Cristian

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OK, here we go,Palette 9: redPalette 10: yellowPalette 24: greenPalette 25: blueThere are more palettes but I left them as they were. Palettes # 9 and # 10 are the two first ones, set apart from palettes 24 through 35. This means 14 palettes altogether.Pictures:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/39156.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/39157.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/39158.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/39159.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/39160.jpgWe may indeed conclude that palette # 9 (the first one) is for the models. The ground is skewed towards yellow or green. Yellow might be drawn from the second palette (# 10) but it might also be drawn from palette # 24. I couldn't find anything turning blue. I scrolled through the day and may conclude that the various palettes aren't used for creating the various light conditions. Elevation (mountains versus sea level) makes no difference. However, distance seem to matter. While any terrain viewed up close looks green it's all looking more normal at a distance. This indicates that palettes 24 through 35 are being selected depending on distance. Close terrain take on the green palette 24 while the distant terrain looks more normal the farther away it is. Thus, LG seems to have used a series of palettes to create a shift in hue as the scenery is being viewed from afar. It may seem that any proximate ground (dirt) draws its hue from palette # 10 while vegetation is palette # 24.best regards,Hans Petter

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Partly wrong and partly right :-)The models are palette 9 for sure. However, as I set the palette 10 back to normal I got the proximate scenery back to normal. The palette 24 seems to be used for the preview screen / map of the entire region. My palette 25 is still totally blue and my palettes 26 through 35 are still skewed 10% towards blue.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/39196.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/39197.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/39198.jpgThus, if we want the snow to look less yellow when viewed from a close distance we'll want to skew palette 10. I still haven't found out what the palettes 24 through 35 do, except that distant scenery has looked fine even when my palette 10 was totally yellow. The funny thing is that while my totally green palette 24 manifests itself in the region screenshot I haven't seen my totally blue palette 25 affecting anything.best regards,Hans Petter

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It could be the weather screen, or maybe the options screen?RobD.

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Tern the HAZE off in options weather. Thats what is kiling the blou.I hope you made backups,?Whats it like at night?glidernut.:-wave

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I just turned the haze totally off but there are still no signs of my blue palette 24. Anyway, the night views are quite normal -- I've cycled through the day and night with the "D" key and that's why I'm confident that the palettes aren't linked to the time of day. Backups? Are you saying that I should have kept the original file?Just kidding -- I've got an ample amount of backups :-)Hans Petter

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I think we've got it!First palette (file 9) is modelsSecond palette (file 10) is sceneryAll the the rest of them (files 24 through 35) are for the various flight planner views. I've cycled through a blue region map with a Vortac, a red region map with compass roses and a green map with airport / points of interest icons. I still haven't tested all of the palettes since I only have a few obvious "flag" palettes (red, blue, green). This means that I have to replace files 24, 25 and 26 with normal palettes again to use my "crazy" palettes for files 27, 28 and 29. I haven't got time for more tonight but it really seems that file 10 is the only one we want to focus on. This indicates that the sim is skewing one and the same scenery palette (file 10) for time of day / light conditions rather than switching between palettes. We might have expected a day palette and a night palette that mix seamlessly since this is how the cockpit views work -- 100% day bitmap = broad daylight, 50/50 = dusk/dawn and 100% night bitmap = midnight.best regards,Hans Petter

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Hans_Petter sent me a crash cors in hoe to edit a palet using PantSopPro.I thort others might find it useful too.This is it. 1)Extract the palette from a RES and save it as a PSP palette2) Load any image in PSP or create a new one. Click Colors --> Load Palette and choose the one you've extracted. Then you can edit the color parameters of the image (hue, brightness, color balance etc). If you have chosen an image that contains the full palette being used you can judge the changes. For this reason, a screenshot from Seattle, showing mountain and ground textures, is good.3) When you have adjusted the color parameters you save the palette rather than the image. I repeat: Colors --> Save PaletteThen you may close the image itself without saving the changes.4) Finally, you import the edited palette through ResViewerNow I can edit a palet too, but I over did it a bit with the whight snow!!!It,s sowed in Seattle everywhere, even the see is all but frosen over.The first snap is of Seattle looking Est.You can see the snow caped mountanes on the other side of Seattlein the distance.The second snap is of Seattle with mount Raner in the distence.Navigating by sight is not so eezy when the landscape is cuvered in snow,Even prominant and familier feechers in the landscape look diferant.Try it, but be worned,its very coled out there, so Where a thik cote, scarf, gluvs, hat, and worm boots.glidernut.:-wave

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Yes, this is certainly a season we haven't seen in FU3 before :-)I'm going to import this palette an keep it as a "winter regres". Glidernut, how about a UK winter option? We'd want to see a partial snow cover rather than a complete winter wonderland. Since this palette doesn't affect the models we won't get any snow on the roofs but the UK hardly sees anything but occasional days with wet snow anyway.best regards,Hans Petter

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Here are some tweaks for the Seattle and the Sanfran region. The attachment is a zipped folder and there's a readme within. Just click on the attachment, choose download and unzip it. Even though this is clearly stated in the readme, please back up your region/Seattle (or Sanfran)/Engpile/resreg.res before you do anything else :-)Hans Petter

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If you want snow on the models, I suppose you could adjust the models palette in the same way? Glidernut, that looks awfully cold. I will it out this evening but I have to buy some antifreeze first. Congrats to both of you! Hans, can you post some pics here to show the change?RobD.

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