Sign in to follow this  
Guest

hey Tom, are we allowed to discuss anything anymore?

Recommended Posts

Be real nice if we had permission to have a thread where we can actually act like adults and have a debate about the seeming hypersensitivity of you and the mods lately.It's becoming a real waste of time to even respond because half the threads disappear making any effort useless.And don't give me that crap about threads deleted or locked only if there's abuse of the rules...if you're going to claim that, repost your rules, because there are threads deleted that absolutely do not have a single personal insult in them or are in any way anything other than an actual heated debate. It's like it's preschool, and we're being protected via the too-oft paternalistic attitude of some mods.It's disgusting that in a free society the censorship on here has gotten so out of hand.Last thread deleted was a debate in the PIC forum wherein I defended the right of a newbie to post newbie questions even if they are buried down in the archives.If this right does not belong to your users, then your forums are a joke for they are merely lag-time chatrooms for high-post total users and not at ALL forums for the topics for which they are named.I just think it ridiculous that we cannot have an adult debate, a disagreement, a rational argument with, whoa, get this crime -- REAL EMOTIONS.What's the point? What exactly are your running here? What are the mods criteria as set out by you?Perhaps if it were more clear and not the same old excuses about how incredibly scientifically-defying psychic you all are knowing that "in the future" a thread will become a flame war --- #####, this was such an awesome place a couple of years ago, why the hyper-censorship?Because you delete anything that challenges or defends, you leave the newbies reading only the same old dismissive, superiority-toned posts by the high post-count people and the symptom of this disease is so obvious if you'd read your own forums more carefully.Do you not see the trepidation in the newbie posts? Can you not pick up on the timidity with which new users ask questions, as if they're standing five feet back from their monitors waiting for the anti-newbie comments to fly?The way it's been around here lately, I feel like you're making the following statements:1. You are not allowed to be frusterated on a forum2. You are not allowed to be angry.3. You are not allowed to argue or debate.4. Forums are the property of old-timers and should not be interupted.5. Any and all discussions about what is an appropriate topic, what is a fair amount of censorship, are to be censored.Now, clearly I'm mad and engaging in a *slight* amound of hyperbole here, but I'm desparately trying to get a point across.Do any other users feel the Avsim forums are dangerously close to just not being fun anymore?Perhaps there's only three or four of us who feel this way -- if so, great, democracy rocks.If not, should the forum "rules" not reflect the needs/opinions of it's users within reasonable limits?Please, please clarify what these limits are, and please make sure the mods are following your examples and guidelines.Just seems so insane that I can't even encourage a newbie to post because by doing so, I'm arguing against the responses of those who would rather keep the forum as a clique-based hang out.DONE MY RANT...hope you answer and let other's chime in if they think it's gone too far as well.you've been so good giving us space/topics as in the BFU expansion and so much else.it would be sad if such generosity didn't extend to the actual content of those forums as well.cheers,michaelEDIT: trying to edit out some of my hostility ;)I don't forget how hard it is to be a mod or your job, Tom, just feel like there's no place left in the world where one can be an adult without someone "protecting" the babies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Can somebody Remove this ????????? :) Anniette xxxxxxxxxxx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL, laughing at my attitude now!My much more polite rephrased request:Tom, would you please clarify what the rules are, under what guidelines are your mods to act, and then allow a democratic debate as to how the rest of us feel about those rules thus hopefully ending in a compromise or adjustment?That'd be great...I'm only mad because of the length of wasted time typing responses that are deleted. Don't think I'm the only one hear caught be surprise when threads are locked or deleted.With other's posting of their leaving over this very issue, I think it's time we all talked about what rules are reasonable.Thanks...I'm going to call my mom now and apologize to her for forgetting her lesson that if you want something, you should first try achieving it with politeness and respect :Dmichael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about a forum just for the things you suggest?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have to go over there for that, but threads get locked there too.See the O/M forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

> Don't think >I'm the only one hear caught be surprise when threads are >locked or deleted. >You're certainly NOT the only one!L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but why not a forum for "locked" threads?? Presumably the problem is the space within a forum that the debates take up. The problem i sure hope is not merely one of bandwidth, as that seems a little unfair considering the off-topic conversations which are allowed and the bandwidth some of the Sigs must take (I'm not talking about you, Scott :D).why not give up the deleting and simply move threads out of the "public" view to another forum thereby allowing the discussions to continue for those who wish it, and within that forum, others could weigh in with their thoughts about whether it should have even been moved?seems fair and democratic to me, still leaves other forums free of long "argumentative" threads without simply hacking off our occasionally well-thought out debates.michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

whew!nice to know that not only is my proverbial butt not hanging out alone here, but actually hanging out with such distinguished company!!;)michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, thanks for bothering to read...the point is you guys invoke the "certain limits" clause an awful lot compared to the amount of effort you spend defining it.is it a flux thing? is it not solid and definable, thus making it difficult for anyone to explain their actions?and the real point is, why exactly do the very users themselves not seem to have any input on what the "certain limits" are??btw...is there not a way to just delete a specific post and not the entire thread? Seems you guys allow single users to wreck entire, time-invested threads over one stupid post.michaelhere I sit giggling at the idea that every thread that's been deleted could even remotely be justified under any of the published rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea, half the time it would be easier to lock the user then the thread, sometimes more effective too ... But then again, we'd certainly decline in memmbership here, as everyone has their "I wanna kill you all" days and lets the odd post rip that they would never type normally ;-)RayPS: I suggest you read the policies of AVSim, there is always that free speech crap floating around in the odd thread, yet the policy is QUITE clear on this "free speech" :-lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess your very first sentence in this thread probably is the very reason threads get locked/removed, at both sites."Be real nice if we had permission to have a thread where we can actually act like adults and have a debate about the seeming hypersensitivity of you and the mods lately".They may start out in an adult manner, and then deterioriate from there. Also, IMO, the mods at either site, do not need to justify their actions. If it is determined that something has been posted that should not have been, they should deal with it in whatever manner they deem appropriate. This may mean to lock the thread, delete it entirely, delete certain posts, and yes, even notify the poster as to why the action was taken. (This does happen, but is not necessary).Just my dollars' worth, and now, I'm off to something worthwhile.Darrell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man is this getting old....Ok, everyone look at the title next to Tom's name and you'll see the word "publisher". You'll also see others with the word "editor" attached to their names. Now lets assume this is your local newspaper instead of Avsim. If a writer puts something in an article that the publisher doesn't think is appropriate for his/her newspaper they remove it. If someone write's a letter-to-the-editor that the publisher deems as inappropriate, it isn't printed. The editors are given this same authority on behalf of the publisher. Noone's freedom of speech is violated. It's their job. It's called responsibility. How can they get away with this? They own it. It doesn't belong to the public. Anyone that doesn't agree with their policies has the freedom to publish their own newspaper (or website in this case). Then they can make the rules. And by the way, you can read your local newspaper from cover to cover and you won't find any formal statement of what the "rules" are. The rules are made at the publisher's sole discretion. That's why he/she's the publisher.As to Tom's role as publisher here, I think he's shown more restraint than I would. Far too many threads here are degraded by immature, idiotic behavior, that detracts from this webites purpose. Name calling, temper tantrums, it goes on and on. Police your own behaviour and then Tom won't have to.Now, can we get back to talking about.....what's the word I'm looking for....oh yes, now I remember....AVIATION.Mike Stone (aka Kiss a** premadona wannabe)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't expect an essay with every deleted topic. I have read the rules. Perhaps next time I will save my venting and post my own save of the actual thread, thereby enabling myself to more properly challenge you as to why, in the face of the content I will repost, you could possibly defend all the deletions.It's not the one's that break the rules that upset me; it's the one's that seem to be deleted in fear of them someday breaking the rules.i think deleting on that basis is just weak and lazy.michael(and again, the point which will obviously get lost here is why we, the people without whom there is absolutely no Avsim, do not have input vis a vis these "rules")

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom, I hope you don't have to take this -- I'll help you click on the "Delete Thead" key :7Kerke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please see my other note.....you don't get a say in making the rules because you don't own it. The same way that subscribers, without whom there would be no newspaper, do not get any say in what is published. And they pay for the newspaper. You pay nothing here.Mike Stone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being a moderator in this forum, I think in all the time I have been here I have locked threads on maybe 3 occasions and removed about 6 posts. I would say that 99% of posts are never touched (or even need to be touched) by a moderator. The majority of "moderating" that we do is in response to alerts we are sent by other forum users who have asked us to look at a particular post, and in most cases its down to profanity. Occasionally we step in when a particular thread starts to get ugly.When it comes to actually locking posts, it normally is due to a post that has already been debated many times in the past.You mention about having a place to discuss things in an "Adult" manner. I expect that this would be taken out of context, and be used to express topics of an "adult" nature whatever that might lead to. To that end, the forums are open to ALL ages both young and old. That is something we have to take very highly into consideration. At times threre is a fine line when we look at threads. We have to look at them from both sides. The subject might at start be a little controversail, but can easily turn into a very good and informative thread. However, it can also turn exactly the opposite direction and get ugly very quickly indeed. Its a catch22 situation for us. Do we or do we not act? Its a hard decision to make at times, but its a responsibility bestowed to those who moderate the forums.That is just my general view on the subject, but i am sure the view of most moderators.http://www.avsim.com/vfr_center/avsim_sig.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

unreal....express an honest opinion and you get snided at. everyone can disagree...who cares? I don't see why I can't post why I'm angry.Correct me. I'm an adult. I can take it :)but to suggest this too should just be deleted is the symptom of the whole problem.i'm actually understanding better why most threads (tho not the PIC one I'm so manic about :D) are locked, and that is the wonderful thing about forums, no?Can I not post the concern with real emotion and get the other viewpoint, or must I be a wimp and a kiss***?Mike's opinion is valuable and making me think about it, but I never saw the internet as just another corporate newspaper.So fine...it is, it's changed, I'm mad about it, big deal....I'm probably just lamenting the loss of the freedom this whole invention once represented, and wishing since we make up the user group, that we could bloody well have a fight now and then.whatever...michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since I make my living as a writer I *might* have to disagree with you, Mike. It is nothing but the reader's (and okay, the advertisers) who determine what is published.I guess I just don't see the content of what was deleted as threatening Tom's membership.And of course he owns the site, he takes the risk, he makes the rules.Please consider the entirety of what I'm trying to say. I just think we could have a better compromise between the priorities of the publishers and the needs of the "readers".and if not, FINE. I can be wrong, out numbered, whatever, as long as I can ask and get these responses to find that fact out. Then I don't feel frusterated when something's deleted. I would then expect it to be deleted. Whatever the rules are are quite secondary to feeling that the rules are stable so we know what to expect.michaelplease everyone remember this is a thread started in frustration because i know longer feel i know what the rules are.and the line about tom not having to take it?Well...read Mike's analogy. Tom's a good guy. He can take the odd angry letter just like we do in print publishing. it's no more reasonable to claim one can't criticize as it would be to claim we can't post our compliments, and this is the ONLY time i've invoked Tom's name in any context other than a complimentary one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yawn...Michael, we are all guests here. It's that simple.If you wish to have a place you envision I suggest a site recently started by some of the folks from the Flightsim forum (I think some of them frequent here also). They seem to be very loose in their rules and willing to take on just about anything. Nice folks, too.http://www.neumanflight.com/yabbse/index.php?board=1Hey, maybe you can bring this issue up there!! But to be honest it's getting to be pretty old stuff here.From another kiss a** premadonna wanabe, and all in good spirit. :-beerchug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well then I apologize. I guess things are changed and it IS too difficult to retain any sort of civility -- if tom give's an inch...okay, okay, okay....the thread itself is demonstrating the mods and tom's sometimes swift hand.perhaps the problem is that they are too efficient ;) in deleting so I have never witnessed how out of control it will get as everyone who doesn't even like the topic will actual post just to say they don't like the topic (why, I'll never understand) and how they want to get back to talking about aviation which of course my complaining here does not even slightly prevent...I relunctantly admit defeat and sneak off to hide in the dark somewhere....I'm no more likely to experience the net as it was ten years ago as I am to have the hair I had ten years ago...lock it Tom...I'm sure you'd love a more open forum but I SEE THE LIGHT and it isn't going to happen any more....seriously...lock it. I don't mind being a hypocrite :Dmichaelp.s. SoarPics, bless you for the link.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...Actually this suggested 'over-protective' moderation/deletion of threads on this forum has been the subject of 'sarcastic-humour' and poor-taste jokes (from aspiring 'Techo-God-Wannabees') on 'other' forums... ironically they rarely get erased :)I concur (and prefer) the rules to be posted for all to read prior to us going to the effort of posting messages only to find someone has misinterpretted the sarcasim (famous of course in British humour!) or the frustrations of individuals - as being detrimental to the general simming population or casual-viewers!Perhaps, (as I do believe AVSIM to be a more mature site than most!) we should have 'separate sections' ie 'NEWBIES' and 'RANTS' etc, etc - That way the moderator(s) can focus on a specific area with appropriate comments/deletions rather than make sweeping statements, deleting threads and getting people all upset by moderating 'an otherwise interesting read'..... or one that he/she doesn't necessarily agree with!Of course, factor in to this, that it is not 'our personal Web Site', therefore the site-owners can do whatever they wish, but presumably they can also listen as well - constructive critism is still alive and well in our hobby - otherwise why have a forum at all, if not to encourage dialogue!!!..... now what was I looking for on the site....ummmm!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But, and I say this gently, this is not the internet, this is Avsim.One talks one way on a street corner, another way in a store. What one talks about in a garage, is not one one talks in a new car showroom. I am sure there is a place, or could be a place, for bikering, strong talk, severe opions about MSN or designers, etc. I myself get weary in this forum right here seeking to know more, or in some small way help, other enthusiasts figure this sim out and yet have to walk over/across the latest "unhappiness". Nothing personal to anyone, but couldn't we take this outside?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this