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Guest LSangiovanni LIML

How do i engage/operate TOGA?

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Hi friends,can anyone experienced explain in simple words how can i engage TOGA and how do i operate a take off?Never been able to take off that way and i'd like to learn with this outstanding bird!Thanks in advance for helpingLuigi ;-)

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(a) Turn on Flight Director on MCP(:( Arm Auto-Throttle on MCP© Stabilize thrust approx 40% N1(d) Push to 70-80% N1(e) Press TOGA button(f) Check TOGA mode displayed in PFD(g) If not, back to (a) & (:( cause you forgot one of them!Thats about as complex as it gets ;)Ray

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The one you would get it once you sucefully programmed the FMC in the TAKEOFF Page 1/2.Best,Bruno Francescoli.

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In case you are wondering Luigi, the TOGA button is the top-left screw on the MCP. Strange, but true.

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Thanks a lot friends for helping out.As i supposed...not so simple :-( i'll give it a go.Luigi ;-)

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Hi Ray,did a short test following your suggestions.Now what should I expect? Maybe the FD cross should center on PFD? It didn't happen in that case and my plane stalled. Also, when should I increase IAS in MCP? TOGA mode was displayed in PFD.Thank you Luigi ;-)

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>>In case you are wondering Luigi, the TOGA button is the top-left screw on the MCP. Strange, but true800/900 models.Anthony

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"At least I'm hoping to get it in the correct spot in the 800/900 models."You are kidding right? That would be a nightmare to be rolling down a runway at 80% N1 then trying to pull up another panel just to click a button. Imagine an Abort or a Go Around!Ray

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Well I am not Ray but to answer your question, no. The FD bars will move to 15 degrees up at 60 knots but this is not a rotation command, after TO once your rate of climb increases the FD bars will command V2 + 20 knots. Let's make this as simple as possible. Set 3000' on the MCP. This will be your flaps retraction altitude for this training flight ;). AT 800' AGL engage a CMD, this will engage LVL CH (Pitch Mode) and HDG SEL (Roll Mode) and will climb to 3000 and engage ALT HOLD. At this point set 200 knots in the IAS window. Retract the flaps. Now reset the MCP ALT to your desired CRZ ALT and engage LVL CH. Set the IAS/MACH window to 250 until passing 10000', after you can then put something like 290-300, at flight level 260 the window will display in MACH. Don't take this as set in stone, there are in reality different operating procedures for airlines, this is to give you a helping hand in the learning process. Some things are fundamental and others are more liberal (flight sim is very libral hehe)... [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/winglets_lg.jpg [h3] AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h3]

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Ray,Good comment. Thats exactly why it is placed there. Mainly not for TO operation but for ease when simulating an aborted take off (RIGHT click of screw). As we all know a successful TO is in fact an aborted aborted-TO...Cheers,VangelisPS. I am just curious as to what a model designer would have to come up with (a) to put it where it really is as demadned above and mainly (:( how a simmer would have access to it. Under the throttle lever handle (no, not a button on the pedestal regrettably)...===================================== E. M. Vaos Precision Manuals Development Group www.precisionmanuals.com=====================================

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Vangelis, I agree 100% with the reasons why, there is NO way to put the TOGA buttons where they really go! Although we want realism, some things like this are NO different than PIC 767's PANEL where it has the gauges not in their right postions (panel layout is off too), no biggie to those who understand why seeing that there are limitations in view and function, I wonder if these guys think that pushing a button that pops up the FMC goes against the realism lol...... [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/winglets_lg.jpg [h3] AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h3]

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"Let's make this as simple as possible. Set 3000' on the MCP."Assuming your airfield is below 3000' ;-) Let's confuse this a bit, Randy (for the experts).... Things like Flap Retraction/Accel height and Thrust Reduction Height is based on "height above airfield", not MCP Altitude. Unless your airfield is at Sea-Level, MCP altitude won't be the same as your flap retraction height (If it was at Sea-Level, I'd be setting the runway condition to "WET" :-lol). At the other end of the scale, setting 3000' in your MCP is not going to do you any good if you're taking off from Denver or La Paz ;-)Hope this clarifies the issue.Cheers.Ian.

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Perhaps you could put the TOGA clickable spot a little closer to where the TOGA button is on the real aircraft, say, on the lower edge of the PMDG EICAS screen?I'd be interested to know whether real pilots actually look at the throttles when they're pressing the TOGA switch, for both TO and GA. If they don't, then it's not important where the "magic screw" is. If on the other hand, they do have to visually confirm they are pushing the TOGA button, then, for the sake of matching ergonomics, it would be good to have a button lower down in the PMDG cockpit.If we are comparing PIC with PMDG (as Randy is doing), PIC has it easier than PMDG in the fact that the "TO" button is actually on the (real) MCP.Cheers.Ian.

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Just to confuse it further ...You may engage a roll mode after 400' AFE (LNAV or HDG SEL).You may engage a pitch mode below 1000' AFE (VNAV or FL CH).1000' is also going to be your first step of flap retractions 10 -> 5, 5 -> 1, 1 -> up etc.Ray

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Yea, but that is kind of the humor eh Ian? Seen any TO/GA buttons on MCPs in any aircraft you have ever worked on?We have people who complain that the unreal button is unreal because it is not in the other guys unreal position on the unreal panel :-lolRay

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"Yea, but that is kind of the humor eh Ian? Seen any TO/GA buttons on MCPs in any aircraft you have ever worked on?"No humor, Ray (at least not this time ;-))...On the 767, the TO button is the "N1/EPR" button. On takeoff, it does exactly the same thing as the throttle-mounted TOGA button(s) on aircraft like the 737NG or the 747-400 does/do. The button(s) on the throttles on a 767 is ONLY a GA button, not a TO button.... at least on all the 767's I've worked on.Cheers.Ian.

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1000' is also going to be your first step of flap retractions 10 -> 5, 5 -> 1, 1 -> up etc. Ah that's not always the case Ray, have you forgot about Noise Reduction Procedures? What about KSNA? If we are gonna get technical ;) [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/winglets_lg.jpg [h3] AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h3]

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RayActually I wasn't complaining about the position of the TOGA button. I think its a very good idea to have it on the main panel - obviously a very convenient place to have it. My 'strange but true' comment was tongue in cheek but I'm pleased it created a bit of interest.You would have to admit though that the current position of the TOGA button isn't very obvious to a first time user of the aircraft. Wouldn't it be better to have a label next to it, wherever on the main panel that it was located? In this case the loss of 'realism' wouldn't bother me at all. Its a bit like the 'MZA...' menu - a really good idea even though I'm pretty sure you wont see this on a real 737.

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WOW,Didin't mean to create such a stir.Hey.....leave the "screw" where it is. No Problem.....AnthonyPS: Forgive me, but I couldn't resist this:The DreamFleet 737 (that "other" plane) had the TOGA button on the pedestal and it wasn't any problem to bring up that window to hit it.

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Thats kinda the point, on a Takeoff you have all the time in the world to find a button.On a Go Around, the world is rather time compressed and taking a hand off the throttle is not really a good idea, perhaps one day, PMDG will be able to figure out a way to be able to map it to a key so we can assign it to a button on our controllers. ;)Having done one of those at CYYZ when someone busted through a hold onto our landing runway I can only imagine having to find a button instead of having it right by your finger. I doubt I would be here debating it if it had been on the MCP :-lolRay

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:-lolWhen my machine gets to where SimCity 12000 is running around the FS 2080 airport, I'll care deeply about offending them with noise ;)I always get a kick out of the noise abatement laws. Perfectly ok for the police to fly their helecopers at 1000 feet over residential areas at 2am in the morning yet people complain about noise at an airport? :-lolRay

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OK i don't understand half of the explanations (sorry I'm a FMC newbie!) Could somebody tell me exacly how to do this again? I set all the correct settings in the FMC and just hit the screw and the airplane will take off by itself?-Alex

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Alex,It is completely up to the Pilot as to whether or not to take off or abort the take off based on conditions during the roll. This is the point in time where things can go seriously wrong.Basically, the Captain's (Pilot Flying) job is keeping the aircraft in a takeoff configuration and flying the plane.The First Officer's (Pilot Not Flying) job is to monitor systems and assist the PF so he may keep his focus dedicated to the task at hand.There are specific procedures for various failures that happen. V1 is generally your GO point, no matter what goes wrong beyond this point, it is considered safer to get airborne and sort it out instead of trying to stop the plane.Vr is the point where the PF starts rotating the nose of the plane upwards in a smooth controlled rate. Pitch too much and you get a tail strike as the plane's tail smacks into the runway.V2 is the airspeed at which the plane will leave the ground and be considered flyable.V2+20 is the speed that you will maintain during the initial climbout (the Flight Director (FD)) will give you pitch instructions for this speed.Following this, the various Vflap settings come into play as one increases speed and raises the flaps. (220 is your goal speed here as I understand the 737)All this part of the flight should really be hand flown although you can obviously slap various auto control modes on at specific heights if you want.Hope that helps you understand your job during a takeoff.Anyone else care to add to this or throw in some corrections, feel free...Ray

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