Sigh, here's a new problem.The PMDGs 737 stall behaviour is completely unrealistic.There is absolutely NO pitch down at the stall, instead she enters a deep stall like a CRJ or BAC 111with the C.G. too far aft.If the stall behaviour would be that way, a stick pusher would be fitted.Even worse, if you depart without a programed FMC you don't get ANYstall warning or barber pole at all!!!!!!!!Regards Bernt Stolle Capt CRJ

IIRC, the barber pole without the FMC programmed has been fixed in SU2, but I could be wrong so don't hurt me ;)And the flight dynamics, well, talk to Vin, and some of the NG pilots we have on our excellent beta team.

thanx fred.The SU2 is going to be VERY interesting!Bernt Stolle Capt CRJ

I think we shall be happy we have a flightmodel with the 737NG that works SO WELL in normal envelope. In my opinion FS is not really made to simulate jets outside normal envelope, but that has been subject of long discussions elsewhere with different opinions already :)Mike

Ah something we agree upon Mike ;)[h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/196432/winglets_lg.jpg

As far as the stall behavior/characteristics go I also have to agree with Mike and Randy. This is something that I gave a sarcastic remark about the reviewers at flightsim who reviewed the PMDG 737NG. They noted a wild behavior when doing a full wing stall in it. Well, guess what... so does the default 747 supplied in the sim by MS!! I think it has to do with Flight Dynamic changes they made in FS2004 from FS2002. Try a full wing stall in the default 747 and tell me what happens. Don't try to recover as soon as the stall starts, fully stall it and then see what happens and if you can recover. I don't hardly ever fly default planes, nor do stalls either, but this came up on another forum about the default 747 and so I tried it. My point is I don't think this is really the fault of PMDG although maybe after SDK's are released various developers will be able to work this problem out, maybe not. Also, I would not have any doubts if other default and addon jets(maybe props too?) behave this way when doing a full stall. If you try it out you are in for a VERY wild ride.Regards,Jim

"There is absolutely NO pitch down at the stall,.."Did you check your rear cargo manifest for depleted Uranium, Bernt? :-) "If the stall behaviour would be that way, a stick pusher would be fitted."The 737 has so many protections against stall, perhaps they didn't think it necessary ;-)Airspeed indicatorsAOA indicatorsElevator feel shift systemAutoslatsA/T alpha protection...and last, but not least, properly trained pilots :(Cheers.Ian.P.S. "Even worse, if you depart without a programed FMC you don't get ANY stall warning or barber pole at all!!!!!!!!"The FMCS provides Gross Weight and Buffet Margin Speed inputs to the SMYD (Stall Management and Yaw Damper) computers. Only Boeing knows how the SMYD "fills in the blanks" in the absence of these inputs (Maintenance engineers, pilots and, I'm sure, FS2002 programmers are not privy to this data). Under these conditions, I'd say that any PFD stall indications generated will be largely irrelevant in a sim in this price range ;-)

Bernt,In the release you have I relied upon MSFS to do the right thing when stall occurs. That is, I modelled the lift curve using correct data (since BAC airfoil data are not published I used the bible Abbot & Denhoff's "Theory of Wing Sections"). Wrong ! MSFS stalls the whole wing in one go regardless of twist etc. In real life the wing is never designed to stall in one go ofcourse. So when the going gets tough....the tough start cooking :One of our pilot advisors spent a few hours in the level D sim stalling the aircraft. I then adapted/recalculated the lift/moment curve so that it matched the observed behaviour. I remember we spend 4 hours stalling the model and applying minute adjustments using (a) the correct procedure, which I doubt if 1 out 100 simmers or mainly reviewers know (and how/why should they...) and (:( the hamfisted approach. We are very pleased with the result and stall figures (speed data) obtained. You'll get this plus FS9 optimised flight dynamics in the upcoming service update.Finally, when a stall situation is imminent the flight director will show you the way to get out of it (also AT will floor the throttle). If you are in CMD mode the plane will adjust the pitch automatically to avoid a stall situation. Don't tell me you have not seen this. If yes send email [email protected]. If ofcourse the aircraft is incorrectly loaded (CG < 13% MAC or CG > 33% MAC), as Ian suggests, then bye bye -- the aircraft cannot fly! Regards,VangelisPS_1. Fred you meant Van I guess.PS_2. Regarding the flightsim review I remained silent...Here goes : it is probably the first time they got their hands on a payware jet add-on that models within FAA certification limits the whole bloody Boeing book in normal operation, and they deliberately "picked" on an issue that even million dollar equipment cannot accurately reproduce, let alone a 70 dollar **TOY** application (MSFS). On the toehr hand I have read wonderful reviews about payware stuff, featuring not just mediocre modelling accuracy but some of them really ludicrous behaviour for any one that has even the slightest idea regarding a/c operation, performance etc. Don't know what to think. Really don't. Thankfully, us "the paying market" are not that easily taken in by such below-the-belt reviewer politics.======================================= E. M. Vaos Precision Manuals Development Group www.precisionmanuals.com=======================================

>PS_1. Fred you meant Van I guess.Wasn't thinking when I wrote that :-hang I meant you, sorry. :(

Ian,>>There is absolutely NO pitch down at the stall,..>Did you check your rear cargo manifest for depleted Uranium, Bernt? Yes, I did and that's why I'm now glowing in the dark.LOL>>If the stall behaviour would be that way, a stick pusher would be fitted.>The 737 has so many protections against stall, perhaps they didn't think it necessary That's not the point, just certification requirements.If there is no or too little natural stall warning, there HAS to bea secondary stall recognition and/or a stick pusher.>AOA indicators Not all operators have these.>AutoslatsOnly at flap 1,2 and 5>...and last, but not least, properly trained pilots Sure, but... #### happens ;-)>>Even worse, if you depart without a programed FMC you don't get ANY stall warning or barber pole at all!!!!!!!!">The FMCS provides Gross Weight and Buffet Margin Speed inputs to the SMYD (Stall Management and Yaw Damper) computers. If you loose the FMCs I can't imagine that you loose all the stall protection. And this has happened not only once of course.Vangelis>MSFS stalls the whole wing in one go regardless of twist etc. I know. sigh. That's why I introduced an extreme nose down moment on the wing of my Do27 just prior to the stall AOA. I want the behaviour to correct disregarding ages old coarse wind tunnel data, if neccessary. >You'll get this plus FS9 optimised flight dynamics in the upcoming >service update.As stated before SU2 gets more and more interesting with every post :-))Looking VERY much forward to it.RegardsBernt

Bernt -->>The 737 has so many protections against stall, perhaps they>didn't think it necessary >>That's not the point, just certification requirements.>If there is no or too little natural stall warning, there HAS>to be>a secondary stall recognition and/or a stick pusher.>I hope you don't mind a little correction, just to make sure that people don't get the wrong idea. (And I realize that English is your second language.)From a certification standpoint, stall warning on the 737 is provided artificially, by a stick shaker. The extent and timing of natural stall warning only plays into whether or not artificial stall warning needs to be provided, not whether a stick pusher or other artificial stall identification device needs to be provided.Whether or not the airplane has an acceptable stall identification (not warning) or acceptable stall characteristics governs whether or not a stick pusher (or other device) needs to be provided. The acceptable characteristics for identifying a stall are listed in 14 CFR 25.201:(1) A nose-down pitch that cannot be readily arrested; (2) Buffeting, of a magnitude and severity that is a strong and effective deterrent to further speed reduction; or (3) The pitch control reaches the aft stop and no further increase in pitch attitude occurs when the control is held full aft for a short time before recovery is initiated. Even if the airplane has an acceptable indication of stall, if its stall characteristics are unacceptable (e.g., greater than 20 degrees of bank during the recovery from a level wing stall), the manufacturer may be forced to install a stick pusher that would artificially "stall" the airplane prior to the unacceptable natural stall.Don S.

Hi Don,>I hope you don't mind a little correction, just to make sure that people don't get the wrong idea. Thanx a lot for this very precise description :-)RegardsBernt Stolle Capt CRJ