Circ-to-land : the real story ?

[Guest dobova]

Hi all,I love to fly the "little" PMDG 737-600. Last week arriving at LIME airport (Bergamo,Italy) the weather was dreadful, with thunderstorm and 20knot wind. ATC told me the rwy in use was 11 instead pleasant 29 with ILS: so circle-to-land.. Obviously I'm not a circling ace..so the flight ended in a great KATABOOM ...I know the procedure at a theoretical point of view, break the approach at 1600', turn 45 degree left and so on. What let me astonished is how REAL PILOT flight this proc!. The problem for me arise when I'm in a parallel track to the runway and choosing the right moment to start the 180 degree turn to get aligned with the rwy. I rarely get, becouse I suppose there is a viewing problem in the simulated cockpit that you haven't in real cockpit. Just my supposition. If Timothy M is listening or some real pilot of this birds, I'll very curious to know some story of the terrible circle-to-land adventure in real world.ThanksDome

[kerke 0]

I'm not a real pilot but my 2 UAL pilot friends (a 767 captain and a 737 FO) tell me that flying the real plane is much easier than flying the Microsoft Flight Simulator, plus you have periferal vision and many more visual clues.Kerke

[Guest tmetzinger]

If Timothy M is listening>or some real pilot of this birds, I'll very curious to know>some story of the terrible circle-to-land adventure in real>world.Even in the little planes I fly, a circle to land is a big deal. Your guess is correct that in a real airplane your visibility is better (wider and you get better situational awareness), and you've got another pair of eyes and hands to help!In the PMDG, I fly the 45 for a full minute, then a downwind leg for a minute, then turn base and turn final around 30 seconds after. All of this is at 150 knots or so with gear down and flaps fifteen, slowing to VREF on final.Practice normal patterns in clear weather until you can reliably make the turn from base to final.

[Guest dobova]

Thanks Timothy,you are clear as always.. I'll practice now in normal pattern to get measures of the base to final turn.CiaoDome

[smokeyupahead 6]

Hi Dome, you can also try the secondary view option (Top-Down I think that's what it's called) in fs9.With that you can see if your alligned with the runway before making the turn on the final approach leg.My best,David

[Guest Zapper]

Guys,IRL though not a day to day procedure is no big deal. It is harder in the sim of course but it is the same in the big sims we use for real world training and checking.A Circling Approach must be conducted at not less than the Circling Minima (cloud base and visibility) specified in the IAP and you must remain within the circling area at all times. For CAT C (you and I) aircraft it is 4.2nmI suggest we all take a look at NWWW (Noumea) Jepps plate 19-1 which is the Circle to Land with Prescribed Tracks. A very similar procedure is laid out for LFMN (Nice, France). Note these type of procedures are unique to our Gallic cousins ;) There are codified procedures and are not exactly what we fly for other Circling Approaches but they give you a good idea of what we are trying to achieve. If you use the ILS to get down to the Circling Minima then fly it in V/S and not APP or the AFDS will take you right through the MDA.As rightly stated above we fly the whole approach with Gear DN and Flap 15 at Flap 15 Manoeuvring Speed.Fly the IAP down to reach the MDA prior to the Missed Approach Point.As soon as you are at MDA in ALT HOLD reset MCP ALT to Missed Approach Alt.Now we start the circling part of the procedure. So in HDG SEL and ALT HOLD drive the aeroplane to where you want it to go i.e. onto a Downwind leg.REMEMBER: Leave the AP engaged in HDG and ALT HOLD until you leave the MDA i.e. turning onto Base.Aim for a spacing of about 1 - 2 miles from the runway on Downwind .. it is something you have to eyeball through experience and is directly related to your HAT (Height Above Threshold)So here we are trundling downwind at MDA with a nice neat spacing, assuming nil wind fly about 40 seconds past the downwind threshold.As you approach 40 seconds it gets busy:1. Select Landing Flap in the usual way2. Start a turn on the HDG BUG towards the runway3. Select V/S down 300-400 FPM4. Complete Landing checklist (should be already done right down to "Flaps..."{Note the judicious use of Centre Map can be a big help here. and I turn the HDG Bug to hit the 'inside' edge of the runway to ensure I don't overshoot and turn through Final :( }I leave the AFDS engaged until almost on final and certainly until I have the Threshold in sight.Adjust your VS to intercept a visually acquired 3 degree slope or onto the PAPI/VASIS whatever, ensure you are stabilised by 500' AGL and pull off yet another of your perfect greasers *:-*There are a number of other little tricks using the FMS etc and I will include those in a GG type tutorial if sufficient people are interested.Simple eh? :)

[Guest pagotan]

Hi Brad,I do not have the charts on hand right now but I vaguely remember that there is a limit not to be exceeded between the landing gear and pilot's eyes height when you adjust your VS onto PAPI/VASIS. However this info may well be outdated by now. I have not practiced these circle to land for a while. Michael

[Guest Zapper]

Try not to make it too hard Gents.Like all navigation tasks, the whole aim of the game is to get to where you can see where you want to go and then go there :)ATB

[Guest pagotan]

Guess you are right. Sorry about that.Michael

[Guest Erups]

The following shoud, more or less, be the Circling procedure for RWY 33 at Rome Ciampino (LIRA).Fly ILS down to MDA, break on the right at 30

[Guest Zapper]

Just before I hit the sack...A Circling Approach is just that...Once you are visual and can remain so then you may fly anywhere within the Circling Area (which is within the appropriate distance of the ARP as laid out in the Terminal secton of Jepps) to place the aircraft in a position from where a safe landing can be made. At a controlled airport this may be in accordance with instructions but it normally left to the pilots to reach the MDA and then proceed via the most logical route to the assigned runway.The French penchant for Prescribed Tracks (NWWW and LFMN) is unique AFAIK and to be honest I doubt it's worth. If you have to do a Circling Approach then things are pretty crap anyway and you don't need to be trying to measure distances from VAVAIDS etc when you should be looking at teh threshold and going there as safely as possible. Only my narrow minded view of it of course ;)Bon Chance!

[Guest dobova]

Ok, guys thank you to all. I start practicing in LIME and LIMJ airports, and finally it gets really better, with all the suggestion in this thread.Now I can turn from base to final really well and follow the path to threshold correctly. It is a normal visual approch in some way, except minima, and the very short final. ;-)CiaoDome

[Guest venquessa]

Hi,Before I had a sim that had ILS's and stuff like that, making it up as you went along was the way, oddly the procedure you just described is how I landed more or less. Fly downwind but a little off track, 30 to 45 degrees for a while, then turn parallel for a while, then turn about 160 degrees and hope you can see the runway.The question I wanted to ask is.... When would you fly a circle to land procedure instead of using a procedural turn? I take it that airports without a suitable VOR for the procedural turn would insist on a circle to land? Is circle to land limited in low ceilings / poor vis etc.Come to think about it, some charts that have what I thought was a procedural turn approach, actually look more like circle to land approaches as described, but flown IFR and at much more than MDA. For example the approach for Runway 35 at Birmingham International EGBB in the UK. It involved overflying the runway, then flying a downwind about 35 degrees off track, until (I think) 8 nm out, then a 180 onto approach. Although there is an ILS on 35. I though it was just a way to get turned round in IFR.

[Guest Zapper]

Gents there is a little point I'd like to make here.There are only two types of Instrument Approach.1. A Precision Approach - where we have electronic LOC and GS guidance all the way to the runway. The Decision Altitude is usually around 200' HAT (Height Above Threshold) for a Category 1 ILS and lower for Cat 2 and Cat 3.2. A Non Precision Approach - any type of Instrumemnt Approach OTHER than a Precision Approach. This can be a GPS, NDB, VOR, DME or combinatiosn thereof. They use Procedure Turns and Base turns to establish the aircraft on required tracks (to miss hills etc while you can't see) As these are not as precise in their position of the aircraft the Minimum Descent Altitude and Minimum Visibility requirements are higher than those of a Precision Approach.Visual Circling is what you do when you get to the MDA/MAPt at the bottom of an instrument approach and can actually see where you want to go, you then go there VISUALLY. We can use Visual Circling any time we can see... so for example I could do an ILS to Runway 35 somewhere and then at the Circling Minima for that particular approach as shown on the IAP {it will be higher than the ILS Minima etc} break off from landing on RWY35 and then circle to land on some other runway. The requirements are to stay Visual and within the presscribed Circling Area.Hope this clarifies the point and adds to your understanding Gents,

[Guest griffinflying]

Just to add to the above, so I will try not to confuse:) When there is no radar coverage for an ILS approach you will most likely be assigned a full approach and be doing either a racetrack or procedure turn to establish yourself inbound. A circle to land in the U.S. usually doesn't have any particular way that is published. You do whatever you need to get established on final and still stay within the protected area. Lose sight of the runway and you go missed. With a light plane tooling around low at 80knots you can get away with a lot more than a 737 at almost twice that speed. I have done circle to land in real life with a Skyhawk at night with clear weather and it can be challanging. I wouldn't even dream of doing it with a low ceiling. Daytime it would be depending on the celing. In the game if the celing is low, and ATC refused me the straight in, I just go ahead and plow through the muck anyway. Real life controllers are a lot more flexable and you can work something out with them.Bob K.