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JSACKS

Bought the farm. Double engine failure in NG on descent !

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I just crashed the ALOHA 737-700 NG two-thirds of a mile short of landing at a regional airport near KSEA. Both engines failed at about 7000' on descent for reasons I cannot determine and both blue lights went on in the overhead panel by the generator. Something went wrong with the AT when I clicked off the AP and the AT earlier for a hand fly approach. I desperately tried to get the blue overhead lights off but no luck. I checked the AT annunciator on the forward panel and clicked that but nothing worked.Anyway, I had ENG FAIL illuminated on the EICAS and had no idea how to do a re-start. I was so frustrated. Nothing seemed to work. I nearly managed to glide in but the stall warning went off at 1nm from the rwy threshhold and it was curtains 10 seconds later.How could I have saved this flight? How on earth do you re-start while in flight?Thanks for any posts.JS


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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JS, (your name?)if both engines just flame out (meaning no fire or compressor stall with severe vibration, or you are certain you did not run out of fuel) you would immediately put ignition on override or was it continuous on the 737, whatever, then - with fuel levers leaving at ON - you hope that at least one will relight. Above a certain indicated air speed your engines won't need bleed air to restart as they'll be rotating due to the airflow. Don't have that speed in memory for the 737 right now. However if your speed is too low for a wind milling restart you'd have to start the APU and use its bleed air just as you would on ground.Now what is very important since you fly all alone at your desktop is that you at all times know what speed you have to fly for best gliding performance. So IF both engines fail you immediately know what airspeed to keep and set your descent rate accordingly. Having done that you then have all the time you need to assess the situation and do engine restart and look for a place to land. But get your airplane in a stable descent with the correct speed is the most important thing! Fly the airplane, then deal with the situation... Of course for that very reason there are two pilots in a cockpit so one can always fly the plane and the other can handle whatever there is to handle.But yeah having a dual flame out at 7000ft is not fun. Remember to lower the gear as late as possible. And if you can't reach a suitable airfield in time, aim for a nice flat area of grass, that is a lot better than stalling the aircraft. Stall means you're dead... but on grass there's even a good chance nobody will get seriously hurt, remember that SAS MD-80 landing in a field in the early 90ies?For training you could fail your engines at cruise level, that gives you a lot more time and a better chance to end in a final high and fast instead of low and slow.We did that recently in the MD-11 simulator while testing for PMDG. A good thing to do that from time to time to keep the skills up :)Regards,Markus


Markus Burkhard

 

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Hi, Markus:Thanks for your post. I am an idiot: I dumped all the center tank fuel earlier in the flight because I'd taken off with 100% gas and wanted to be below max LW for arrival! So I think I was still on center tank feed when the engines quit on me and guess what...? uh-oh, it's farm time !Hope I don't make that mistake again. I did actually dump the gear late but not late enough. Around 1500' AGL. Should've waited till about 600 to 800 AGL. I also was at flaps 15 mostly and extended to flaps 30 a little early on approach. So the IAS bled off fairly smartly during the last 30 seconds. Not good!I do recall one or two amazing escapes landing on grass, not the SAS one you mention but another one in Central America some years ago when a new 737 landed on a grassy river bank during a t-storm. No fatalities. Incredible stuff!Thanks again.Jonathan Sacks ("JS" on AVSIM since 1999 and sometimes I forget to sign in full on this forum, sorry!)


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Jonathan,one important thing you might want to do different next time; Do NOT go to flaps 30 when all engines are out! For one engine out the maximum flaps setting you can use is 15. If both are out... Don't have the procedures handy for that one for the 737. On the MD-11 you maintain whatever flaps setting you had when loosing the last engine. If that means a zero flaps and slats landing so be it. My best guess at the moment is that you do the same on the 737. But one thing is for sure, NEVER use full flaps when you have only one engine or less.About that inflight engine restart, have a look at the PMDG manual. There's a suitable checklist in there in the Abnormal Procedures chapter; LOSS OF THRUST BOTH ENGINES. Always keep abnormal and emergency checklists handy for any flight! Regards,Markus


Markus Burkhard

 

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Right-o, sir. I understand and funnily enough when I was at flaps 15, I FELT that this was stable and OK, but I was unsure about a significantly faster approach with such a setting. Next time I shall go with my instincts and your advice.Thanks again!Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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