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Flat spin in a 767 with the left engine out....is this

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I must say that I've never experienced so many "firsts" with any addon in my 17 years of flight simming.I lost the left engine, got a little slow on approach, and sure enough, watching replay after replay, I accepted the truth that I had actually entered a very slow flat spin. My track remained relatively stable as the aircraft rotated slowly to the left until the wing broke into a total stall, dipped, then the nose dropped and she flipped on to her back!! My god...the screams from the cabin!After being totally belly-up, I managed to recover in the midst of "terrain...terrain...pull up...pull up" and I realized my heart rate was about 120 and I was actually sweating.An amazing experience.I just wonder whether the real thing could enter a rotation like this?michaelp.s. any one else missing the "speed brake" indicator light when the speed brakes are deployed? I get no idication whatsoever.

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Guest MB327

"p.s. any one else missing the "speed brake" indicator light when the speed brakes are deployed? I get no idication whatsoever."I only see the indicator light when on approach. I am not really sure if it is tied to the radio altimeter, flaps, or gear. I wish it was armed in all phases of flight but perhaps PIC is modeled after the real thing, after all, everything else is...When I had my first engine failure, I was fortunate to have Harv Stein on line at his usual observer post on VATAIM. He quickly walked me through the procedures and I had a fairly uneventfull landing. The autopilot handled it extreamly well and then it just came down to having the right feel when I took over on short final. The failure was not programed. It was the first of two times that I ran out of fuel in the right tank. Kind of fun actually.

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Thanks...I did notice it came on once or twice but thought it a bug resulting in intermitant indications as opposed to what you explained, which is that it works on approach but not cruise/descent. Also, I realize reading my own post that "rotation" sounds like the plane was rolling, dipping a wing, or pitching, which I would expect. What I didn't expect was a true flat spin, where the pitch/roll remained stable but the aircraft heading-wise was spinning to the left.michaelp.s. felt like I was in that scene in Top Gun except in an airliner? Still wonder whether this is possible in real life.

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Guest ilh

I think the spoiler light has a bug. It seems that if spoilerons_available=1 (or _enabled) is in the aircraft.cfg, your flaps deployed to a certain extent, and you use your ailerons, you'll see this light, but only when moving ailerons one way. At least this is what I have observed. I thought I read in the manual somewhere that this yellow spoiler light indicates that the spoilers are deployed with flaps beyond a certain point.In my aircraft.cfg I disabled the spoilerons so now I don't get this warning light when landing. It also had zero measurable effect on roll rates so I do not believe I hurt my flight dynamics. I actually measured -30* to +30* rolls with a stop watch at various speeds.Lee Hetherington (KBOS)

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Guest Ian_Riddell

>"p.s. any one else missing the "speed brake" indicator light >when the speed brakes are deployed? I get no idication >whatsoever." >>I only see the indicator light when on approach. I am not >really sure if it is tied to the radio altimeter, flaps, or >gear.Had a quick look at the 767 Maintenance Manual and the requirements for the illumination of this light are:# Flaps in landing range and speedbrakes extended at any altitude above 15' RA. I believe this combination will put undue strain/aerodynamic loads on the wing structure.#Simply using spoilers between 15' and 800' RA (Dumping lift at these altitudes is probably not conducive to good landings).The 747-400 has an additional one... Anytime the thrust levers are advanced to a certain point (usually a few degrees away from idle) above 15' RA and spoilers are extended. I don't know if this is an option on the 767.Hope this helps.Cheers.Ian.

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My 767/757 sim prep manual indicates that having the spoilers extended when in landing config is not a good idea because if they are extended when landing the attitude of the aircraft would be too high resulting in a tail strike. This is why it is annunciated.I don't believe the 767 has a config warning with spoilers extended and power on as you mention with the 747. That is why pilots generally leave their hand on the spoiler handle while they are extended. That makes it very difficult to level off advance the power and forget the spoilers. Kind of embarrassing......I know from experience.

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Guest fwsov

If you get a 767 into a spin, those wings will fall off quicker than you can say "flat spin non-normal checklis......." Another intresting thing about the 767 which i learnt from HPSOV is that if you get into a spin, you use airlerons to get yourself out of it, Why i hear you ask? Because of the spoilers which come up when using strong airleron inputs.In real life a 767 could very well flip on it's back, especially if it's a catastrophic engine failure which spools the engine down extremely quickly, resulting in a violent yaw.RegardsAndrew

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The speed brake indicator is a warning light. It does not indicate that the speed brakes are on. It lights when their is a fault in the speed brakes, or when in final landing config (flaps >= 25) with speed brakes deployed.Regards,Wade

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"p.s. any one else missing the "speed brake" indicator light when the speed brakes are deployed? I get no idication whatsoever."I only see the indicator light when on approach. I am not really sure if it is tied to the radio altimeter, flaps, or gear. I wish it was armed in all phases of flight but perhaps PIC is modeled after the real thing, after all, everything else is...When I had my first engine failure, I was fortunate to have Harv Stein on line at his usual observer post on VATAIM. He quickly walked me through the procedures and I had a fairly uneventfull landing. The autopilot handled it extreamly well and then it just came down to having the right feel when I took over on short final. The failure was not programed. It was the first of two times that I ran out of fuel in the right tank. Kind of fun actually. Not an expert on this but here is what I have noticed. If your traveling fast the speed break light isn't gonna come on. Even on approach it doesn't come on until you reach a certain slow speed. It comes on to warn you that its still deployed. But not until your down around 130 mph somewhere around there.I will only use the speed brake if I am flying to high on approach and need to decend quickly which is rare. After I am on the glidescope perfectly. 30 Flaps, Landing Gear Down, AutoBrakes set. Soon as I touch down hit F2 to get Reversers & Speed Brakes to Deploy.I like to do full manual landings. PIC is an excellent product cept for the outside design of the plane.Crappy lights, beacons, strobes and no animated thrust reversers for FS 2002. However the POSKY planes look excellent! Now if the guys at Wilco had any smarts they would hire the POSKY team for all their future Plane Packages.

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My thanks to all of you. I feel like a moron :( for thinking the spoiler light was an "indicator" like in fs98 days instead of (obviously!) a warning light, since in a "real" sim, the position of the freakin handle is the indicator!!Interesting about the real world spin possibility....it was my *first* engine fire and it probably took me too long to react, thus once that yaw got going....thanks againmichael

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While studying for my commercial multi-engine checkride I came across your post. Kind of funny as I had just read this question in the oral exam guid about 10 minutes prior to reading your post. So I thought I would put it here and you might get a kick out of it since it describes your situation so well. It reads:With full power applied to the operating engine, as the airspeed drops below Vmc(minimum control airspeed), the airplane tends to roll as well as yaw into the inopertive engine. This tendency becomes greater as the airspeed is further reduced, and since this tendency must be counteracted by aileron control, the yaw condition is aggravated further by aileron yaw(adverse yaw). If a stall should occur in this condition(highly likely), a violent roll into the dead engine may take place. Such an event near the ground could be disastrous.Sound familiar Michael? Take care.Mike Shean

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Amazing!! Thank you for that. I find it almost impossible to believe they could make the flight model so accurate that this behaviour would occur exactly as you described in the above quote. All the MS aircraft do is drop their nose. Too bad I didn't have the video recorder on as the flip once the stall occured was, indeed, "violent".michael

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Guest WorkingStiff

Michael,Are you new to 767 PIC?

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Guest

New? Very. And kicking myself in the ### for not buying this a couple years ago. And here I was adding fake toggles to freeware and default panels so I could pretend to go through real life startup procedures!Geez...I can't even enjoy my job any more because I just keep glancing at the clock, counting down the hours till I can get home and get back to my beloved PIC...er....my beloved wife :Dmichael(p.s. I sure am R'ingTFM but I still can't descend with Vnav so to have the 10000ft speed restriction kick in, etc. If anyone feels patient...)

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Guest WorkingStiff

Welcome to the club...... :-lol

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Guest Ian_Riddell

>Another intresting thing about the 767 >which i learnt from HPSOV is that if you get into a spin, >you use airlerons to get yourself out of it, Why i hear you >ask? Because of the spoilers which come up when using strong >airleron inputs. Not sure I understand the aerodynamics involved here, Andrew.... Any further clues? What does activating the spoilers do in a spin situation? Not knowing much about aerodynamics, I would have guessed using the rudder would have been better (after all, that's what they use in engine out situations). Using ailerons reduces lift.... Do you want that in this situation?Thanks.Cheers.Ian.

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Guest fwsov

Oops, only just saw your post then Ian.Ok, you'd be better off asking the 767 driver himself but when the airlerons are activated, the spoilers on the wing dropping come up a little to help roll and yaw the plane. Well according to Boeing, this seems to be quite effective in pulling the plane out of a spin. You would think that using airlerons is a BIG no no but on the 767 it's different, in fact it's very hard to re-train yourself to use ailerons instead of rudder.here's an example:

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This thread intrigued me. I placed the a/c at KPDX, departed 10R for the north training area near BTG VOR. There was a 4500' o/c so I initially set the 767 up a 3500' clean 200 kias and failed the left engine. I decreased power until I was +/- 5 kias from Vs and then added power as the a/c slowed. The available power at my weight (aprox 40% fuel) caused the a/c to climb. In this config, I had stick shaker activation prior to any loss of directional control. Hence, Vmc :( AI traffic have no intention of "following" another a/c when directed to do so. Also I could not get the left to airstart without accelerating to 220 kias and using the ram effect to spool it up. Is there a better procedure?After posting, I tried the same procedure in the DF 737 and found Vmc to occur prior to Vs with flaps 15 and flaps 30. Vmc appears to be around 125 kias with the left fan out.

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