Guys,Working for a rather large European cargo airline, I sometimes substitute as a flying loadmaster. Recently I had my first experience jumpseating on the B757-200SF. As you may know, the 757 and 767 can be flown on the same typerating. Cockpit and most of the systems are identical.I already knew that 767PIC was very close to the real thing, but just how close it is surprised me. Entering the cockpit well ahead of departure I found the skipper nesting over the FMC and asked if he would mind if I looked over his shoulder. His question "Do you know how to operate this (the FMC)?". I honestly replied "No" but added that I've played around with something that looked like it on my PC and told the story of 767PIC. Obviously the skipper was a bit sceptical but decided to put it to the test. So he deleted all his work, handed over the flightplan and asked if I would like to try working the FMC. Since I would be under his supervision, sure why not?Let me tell you guys, it is EXACTLY 100% THE SAME PROCEDURES! Setting up the flight was a breeze, only time the skipper froze was when I entered 150 in the cost index (I like to go fast), so had to change that to 60 which corresponds to a M .796 cruise speed. VNAV set-up was a breeze too, INIT REF likewise. Only thing different here from PIC was that the FMC did not calculate V speeds; these were taken from a take-off datasheet and the entered in the FMC. As we would be doing a derated take-off, a mighty big binder was consulted which lists every runway we use. Find the runway you need, and the table will give you the D-TO based on temperature, humidity and aircraft weight. The real big difference was the vast SID/STAR database in the real life FMC. But selecting one was a true no-brainer, simply select the one give by ATC in the departure clearance.Engine start-up: Follow the PIC manual is all I can say, with one little difference. The RB211 donks on the 75 are of a 3-stage design, meaning that you have a N3 reading and fuel is selected on based on N3 rather than a N2 reading. That's it.As we got underway and enroute on "my" 10 page route, we had barely gotten airborne before ATC cleared us direct to "WOODY". Bit of geography here, we were flying EKCH to EBBR and WOODY is around 50NM from EBBR runway 25R. In other words, we skipped around 5 pages of my carefully entered flight. Minutes later, we got a direct to "BRUNO", which is a VOR used for the STAR approach to 25R. Another 2 pages skipped :)The skipper was kind enough to let me handle a slight fuel imbalance, and again exactly same procedure as 767PIC; Crossfeeds valve open, the close fuel pumps on the side with most fuel. Reversing, first open fuel pumps then close x-feed valves. Piece of cake!The skipper was a very nice chap, and in the right hand seat we had a very young first officer. It was the F/O's leg, and on the STAR to EBBR the skipper decided to have him work a bit for the money. So instead of following the magenta line (he was handflying from 8.000 ft) the skipper switched off the Flight Director and had the F/O fly on the raw data. It was serious CAVOK weather though, and we picked up the runway visually with around 20NM to go, making life just a little easier on the F/O.Observing his flying, it striked me just how benign the 757 is. Speed was easily held within a few knots of target, flap extension had little effect on pitch and handling.

Very nice experience.It once again proove that PIC is THE cockpit to fly with.I'm sure that many would appreciate a few more data if you could give us. The 757 operates the same regardless of being a cargo or a passenger variation.Since myself and many others are looking for a good 757 to fill in the gap in FS2002, could you give us a few more details?What was your TOW? How did the a/c perform during climb? What was your cruise FL and what power was needed to keep the M.796 ECON speed you mention? What was the rate of climb? How fast did she accelarate?You know... Small performance details that noone notices while in the cockpit because everyone is too amazed to look for these details... ;-) I once had the luck to fly in the cockpit of a 757 during a whole flight back in 1994 and I didn't even thing to look to those details! Of course back then there was no PIC to fly with... Just FS5!!! :-)Cheers,George DorkofikisAthens, Greece

Hi George,Well I was busy handling the fuel imbalance, remember :)Frankly, I don't know what the exact engine settings were. But we climbed direct to FL380 but as you will appreciate, the ROC decreases continously as the altitude increases.The B757, especially lightly loaded, is a rocket. Acceleration was very brisk and we soon reached V1 of 135 kts. Maintained V2 + 20 kts during initial climb, and upon receiving a "no speed restrictions" clearence, the ROC was decreased to around 1500 fpm and the aircraft accelerated quickly to 315KIAS, at which point we were around 6000ft climbing at around 3500 fpm. From memory, the block time was 1:30 with an airborne time of 1:05. Sorry, but for the life of me I can't remember how much fuel we used; probably around 4500 kgs with a headwind component of around 20 kts. Sure, the aircraft is operated the same whether it's carrying packages or self loading freight.I can give you a few details on the B757-200 with RB211-535C engines:MTOW: 92987 or 99791 (Boeing charges USD 50.000 for the high t/o version, and all they do is sign a piece of paper ....)MLAW: 89994MZFW: 83498Max fuel: 34000Max payload (performance limited, typical flight): 29000

Hey guys,Yep, a lightly loaded 757 is indeed a rocketship. I can remember many times seeing the IVSI pegged at the maximum climb rate for the first ten thousand feet or so (we have the Pratt and Whitney PW2037s on our fleet....gross take-off weight=227,000 lbs.) Even on a ship loaded at the max (Minneapolis to Anchorage), we can routinely climb unrestricted to FL350, and within about two hours have her up to FL 390. BTW, a "rough" fuel burn for our machines is 7,000lb/hr total.I've used max take-off thrust (due weather) on a light 757, and the take-off acceleration is incredible. My five year olds first airplane ride was on a 757 about three years ago. She cristened it "the tickle-plane" because it tickled her stomach on take-off.....hehe.Yep, 767PIC is VERY, VERY close to the real deal (I'll have my review up for it in a few weeks).Capt. William "BBall" BallBoeing 757, Northwest AirlinesSenior Editorwww.frugalsworld.com

>Yep, 767PIC is VERY, VERY close to the real deal (I'll have >my review up for it in a few weeks). Capt. BBall,Thanks for joining the forum. It is always a privilage to converse with such experienced individuals.On the subject of 767PIC - one thing that strikes me (comparing to some other jet simulated aircraft) is the amount of rudder/elevator authority left on this plane when approaching to landing/touchdown. In other suimulators I tried the controls get significantly more "mushy". I wonder which is the case on the real aircraft. I have to say this crispiness of the controls to the very end makes the handling a lot easier (at least for me). Michael J.PPL

Hey Michael J.,Actually, the privilege is all mine. I'm constantly in awe of how well informed GA simmers (like yourself) are. Also, the level of expertise I see concerning all the add-ons and/or utilities just astounds me. I'm primarily a combat flight simmer (C/O of the VFS 32nd Arctic Knights...a LAN group in the Twin Cities), but FS2k2 (and 767 PIC) has sparked my interest in the civilian world of flight sims, and although you can't blow anyting up, it's quite a bit of fun.Afa the pitch authority shown in 767 PIC, I'm not that familiar with the "other simulations" and their "mushyness", but in the real jet, there's plenty of crispness throughout the flare and touchdown. In fact, although we have VERY few tail strikes in our fleet, almost all of them have occured during the touchdown and rollout phase of flight. The 757-200 will make contact at apx. 10.5 degrees nose up at touchdown (normal touchdown attitude is apx. 5-6 degrees at flaps 30). We've just taken delivery of the first of several 757-300s, and the extra 23' of fuselage means that contact occurs at apx. 8.5 degrees noseup at touchdown....so we are all watching our pitch attitude at touchdown a bit more these days. Remember, when the ground spoilers deploy, the nose will pitch up...so "aerodynamic braking", or "holding it off" looking for a greaser landing (thus allowing your airspeed to decay below Vref), are not good ideas. Tail strikes are NOT good for a pilot's fragile ego...:-).Capt. William "BBall" BallBoeing 757, Northwest AirlinesSenior Editorwww.frugalsworld.com

Thanks to all concerned for providing such an interesting and informative topic to read. Just a couple of questions for all those 757/767 pilots out there. How does flying the 767 PIC with standard flight dynamics with a joystick compare to flying the 767 in real life with a yoke? Does it take much of an adjustment to go from a joystick to the real thing? Also, I fly using the MS Force Feedback 2 joystick, and I have the return-to-center tension set on high. I feel that it gives me the ability to make smaller adjustments when on final, and allows me to make consistent landings right on the center line. My question is, on the real-world yoke, is there much return-to-center tension? In other words, how much strength is required to turn the yoke?I think it is amazing that we're asking all these questions about such intricate details of an aircraft, and we prove ourselves by being able to handle some fairly advanced functions on the real thing with only computer simulations to train us. Many thanks to everyone that makes it possible.-tmwilky

>My question is, on the real-world >yoke, is there much return-to-center tension? In other >words, how much strength is required to turn the yoke? I don't fly Boeings but in small general aviation aircraft there is very little return-to-center tension (and the "center" is poorly defined). This is what makes a typical joystick so unrealistic.Michael J.

Welcome aboard Captain.Thank you very much for your input on this matter. The 757 is my favorite aircraft. Simply beautyfull. IMHO the most beautyfull airliner build after the 727 and the 707. Yes, the 747 is nice too, but the 757 has something that make you fall for it.Ooops... Carried away... :-)We lack a good 757 in FS2002, so the more input we can get on performance, the better flight dynamics we can build. If you know of any site that has such performance data, please let us know.Since you have direct 757 experience I would appreciate if you could look at a previous post of mine ('Mission Failed, I give up!') about my comments about the 2 most popular 757s currently available for FS2002.Thanks!George DorkofikisAthens, GreecePS. Don't you just LOVE that stomach 'tickle' on t/o ?!

I was lucky enough once to ride a 732 simulator for a while.At that time I too had only a Joystick.The feeling of the aircraft's yoke was great! Not much force required to turn the yoke. Normally it is done by only one hand! The other hand is on the throttle (until V1 and during the whole approach).The feeling was very smooth, not hard at all and you could feel the response of the aircraft immediately. Also, I noticed no center detend or hard centering force. There was however feedback on the yoke.This is what desktop sims lack of (for now)... The movement feeling and feedback you get from the airplane itself. We have to rely only in our vision while in the real airplane all your senses are active and provide you feedback. That's why some real pilots find it hard at first to get used to flight sims. The absense of extra senses makes it difficult for them.George DorkofikisAthens, Hellas

Hey guys,Thanks again for the welcome.Just a couple of notes.-It's actually quite easy to handle the aircraft yoke with one hand. One hand on the yoke, one on the thrustlevers (until V1, then both hands on the yoke for rotation on take-off). All our control surfaces are hydraulically powered, so it's a bit like "power steering" in an automobile...not a huge amount of force to move the wheel. -There is a "center" return force, but it's very tame (no center detent as it were). When we apply ailernon trim, we (in effect) are repositioning the "center" position, and yes, the yoke is turned in the direction of the aileron trim (anything more than 10 degrees, and one will get a spoiler to raise, so we keep it under 10 degrees....it usually takes MUCH less than that).-For my PC flying I have a Thrustmaster Cougar HOTAS setup positioned on a stand that I made. It fairly replicates the F-16 setup with the joystick by my right thigh, and the thrustlever by my left one. Does this feel normal in Falcon 4? You bet! Normal in 767 PIC....not even close! :-) It is a tad weird to fly the big Boeing with this setup, and although not very realistic, it's certainly do-able. (I guess it would feel "normal" if I were in a dogfight with another Boeing....hehe)George, I'll take a look at your other thread, but I'm headed out the door for work (MSP-SFO). Gotta get my "tickle-fix".... later gents,Capt. William "BBall" BallBoeing 757, Northwest AirlinesSenior Editorwww.frugalsworld.com

>headed out the door for work (MSP-SFO). Capt. - maybe a beer in SFO (or vicinity) next time around. I am in OAK.Michael J.

Michael J.,That sounds great. Always look forward to meeting another flight sim enthusiast. Unfortunately, I don't have any SFO layovers scheduled for August or September (we bid our schedules one month in advance). I'll keep you informed the next time I get one.Take care,Capt. William "BBall" BallBoeing 757, Northwest AirlinesSenior Editorwww.frugalsworld.com