Attention: The cause for the Reverser-problem with yoke

[teropa]

Hi!It started to annoy me that I couldn't get the reversers to work with PIC as assigned to a CH yoke lever.I then contacted mr. FSUIPC guru Pete Dowson and have corresponded with him regarding this problem. Now, I just quit testing stuff, and I found the reason that is causing this non-engagement of reversers with FSUIPC reverser-lever setting.This is my email to P.Dowson I just sent, and it clarifies the problem. As you can see, there might be a solution to this, but first we'll have to wait what Pete thinks about the thing I suggested.-- cut cut --Hi Pete,Okay, problem is not solved, but I know what causes it, and I think this canhelp.The problem:PIC airfile (or the panel) has a setting of so called "flight idle", whichbasically means that when the wheels are off the ground, the lowest idlesetting that the EEC (electronic engine control) commands is around 32-33%N1. And once the wheels get contact, the idle setting is moved further to ~27-28% N1, and THIS lower setting is the one that permits the engaging ofReverser thrust. The higher flight idle, which is also modelled in the realaircraft (surprise :)) will even remain "on" UNTIL the pilot moves thethrottle a notch forward and back to re-initialize the new idle-setting. Thereverser works fine with ground idle, but NOT with the flight idle. In fact,I'm thoroughly surprised that you have not seen this problem. Oh wait.. youare not using PIC panel ?. The panel contains this logic, not the model (Isuspect you mean the AIR-file by model ? the model has nothing to do withflight characteristics). PIC has these Engine computers called EEC whichcontrol the different thrust settings. If I turn the EEC OFF the reverserworks 100% fine due to the fact that there are no longer different idlesettings in the aircraft, and idle IS just idle even in the air :).Further: why does the F2 work then? It's because the F2 also lowers thethrust. Now, as the wheels take contact and I press F2 first nothing happensas the F2 causes the engines to go to ground idle, and THEN the reverserstarts to kick in. That's it. No more magic than this. The flight idlesetting inhibits the reverser, and the workaround is to either1. Set EEC OFFor2. move the throttle quickly fore and aft to make the engines go to groundidle and=> the reverser works!Now, what I'd like to ask is that: is there a "way" to make thereverser-lever function in FSUIPC work in such a manner that it firstaffects the throttle (so that the throttles get to put to ground idle) andTHEN moves the reversers. If it is possible, problem is solved!What do you think ? :)regardsTero-- cut cut --rgdsTero

[Guest Mark McG]

Tero,the work around method I was looking at was not very successful.the idea was to set the throttle up using page 3 of the calibration that allows for reverse thrust from a single lever.The idle and reverse would be set very close together.Then use the Mixture lever for the reverse thrust.This did not work well at all.Hopefully pete can give us a solution.Option 2 is to have 1 of the buttons on the CH Yoke assigned to F2, and when you pull the throttle back, press this button and then activate the reversers.Mark

[Guest MB327]

"Option 2 is to have 1 of the buttons on the CH Yoke assigned to F2, and when you pull the throttle back, press this button and then activate the reversers."Mark and all,Your option 2 is exactly how I have been handling this all along. I have the CH Yoke (USB) and the USP Pro Pedals but also use a Suncom Throttle Control. In this arrangement, I do not even have the CH throttle assigned. I use a thumb switch on the throttle assembly to initiate reverse thrust by assigning that switch to a repeating F2. This works very well. When I pull back on the throttle during the flair and the wheels make contact, I push up on the spring loaded thumb switch which engages reverse thrust and deploys the spoilers. That same switch, when pulled in the opposite direction, is my spoiler deployment handle.If you only had the CH Yoke, or any other device for that matter, all you really need to do is assign the repeating F2 to something easily in reach. Having said all of that, it would be great if we could get an axis to behave like a switch. The axis, prop pitch or mixture, could possibly be mapped to a keypress and the repeating function increasing in rate based on the axis range of the controls position. With that arrangement, you would be accomplishing the same thing that I am currently doing through the deployment of the prop or mixture control. It would be great to hear Pete's reply to Tero's email.

[Guest Mark McG]

Mike,I have my prop lever assigned as the spoiler axis.This provides really good spoiler deployement in flight, aaaas you can get alter the amount of spoiler deployed.With the mixture lever controlling reverse thrust, you can vary the amount of reverse being used as well - good for shorter runways.Mark

[teropa]

Guys,The solution lies in activating the ground idle upon touchdown, one way or the other.Pete sent me a suggestion to try out, but I'm currently spending the weekend away from all my flightsim equipment. I will continue the experimenting on Sunday. I'm very confident that we will get the reverser working as it should on a single lever, no buttons or such needed.The problem is the ground idle, no matter what axises or levers are assigned in the CH yoke. MikeB's solution is a practical and a good one, but of course a better one would be to find a way to activate ground idle WITH the reverser lever itself. This little problem we're having is actually a clear BUG in PIC767. The EEC should automatically reduce to ground idle, without the need to move the throttle to "initialize" the new idle power setting. This is not happening now, and that's why we are having this problem.We'll see, and I'll report here any progress that is (and will be :)) made.rgds,Tero

[Guest lamont]

Hey Guys:I didn't know some of you were having this problem. I've been using the mixture lever as my reverser lever since Pete made it possible to do this. My reversers kick in without a problem 100% of the time.However, T you bring up an interesting point as to how the paneled is modeled. I think that the fact that I also have my throttle axis split may be the solution. By split I mean I use Pete's program to set idle and max then I set a portion for reverse. This was the default way prior to his new fix. I didn't change it because I fly props sometimes and this allows for reverse props.On approach when moving throttles to idle, perhaps I am setting them at that lower notch which when the gear touches allows the reversers to kick in. Try it.

[teropa]

Lamont,It really doesn't matter how I have my throttles set up, the fact remains that PIC panel logic doesn't reduce to ground idle UNTIL the aircraft is on the ground. IF you are able to reduce the idle to below 30% N1, then you have the EECs turned OFF, which in turn yields working reversers. The FS2002 itself doesn't have any built-in ground/flight/approach idle power levels, they were implemented by the PIC developers to recreate the real-world 767 functionality. And the logic works also otherwise beautifully, only the reversers won't engage with the flight idle setting. Further, I have no clue as to how it is possible for you to set the throttle to the required ground idle setting of below ~ 30% N1 IF you are using the original PIC panel. The only explanation I can offer is that you have the EEC turned OFF or somehow you manipulate the throttles on touchdown to re-initialize the ground idle, which then allows the normal reverser engagement. If I think about it, you have a separate reverser-"stage" in your throttle, which means that ONCE you start to pull the throttle back to engage reverse thrust, you are ALSO putting the throttle TO ground idle BEFORE going to the reverser zone. This explains the fact that you don't see this problem.With other people, like us, who are trying to get the reverser to work as a separate lever (as IRL), the problem remains as stated before.Like I said earlier, will look into this, and I expect us to come up with a solution to suit even us "lever-people" :).regardsTero

[Guest lamont]

Hi Tero,Maybe, I didn't make myself clear. My current set up is with a CH Yoke. The Left Lever is Throttle, Middle - no assignment for PIC, Right lever is reversers.Example: On approach, at approx. 50' reduce throttles to idle, flare, touchdown, forward yoke, reversers(with right lever, not throttle lever). I hope this explains that I am using a separate lever very successfully.Btw, my EEC's are on.

[teropa]

Lamont,Ok. I don't seem to get this at all :). Could you do something for me. 1. at 50 feet, after you have pulled to idle, could you check the N1 value PRIOR to touchdown. If it happens that the plane sinks to ground too quickly, could you just "float" it there to see where the N1 sinks whilst still in the air (in the idle thrust).2. Once the plane has touched down, could you again look at the N1 reading to see IF the reading automatically reduces to a lower value than what you saw in the above flight idle setting.I'm having trouble understanding this, since I did some extensive testing yesterday and found out that if and ONLY if the ground idle is commanded, will the reverser engage.My setup: CH yoke USB, CH Pro pedals USB. throttle-lever: throttles for both enginesprop-lever: reversersmixture-lever: spoilersrgdsTero

[Guest lamont]

Hi Tero:I will be glad to test as you request. After looking at your setup I seem to recall that when Pete modified his program to allow for the levers to be assigned to reversers it had to be the mixture-lever. If that is true, that could be part of the problem since you are using the prop-lever. Have you tried reversing(no pun intended) the levers?Anyway, I will get you those N1 numbers.

[Guest lamont]

Hi Tero:Okay it looks like upon initially going to idle N1 starts bleeding off to around 40%. As gear touches the bleed continues to 32% N1. As nose wheel touches N1 has reached 32% or below, reversers engage.Hope this helps.

[Guest]

I tried to set up my CH USB yoke using the mixture lever to operate the reversers. No luck at all, FSUIPC doesn't see the lever operation on page 7 when trying to calibrate. I did assign a value ( 66242, I think, anyway it's right number from the docs. ) Yes, in the docs it says to use the mixture lever. I've done all the "right things" but can't get FSUIPC to "see" the mixture lever. Following this subject with great interest..

[Guest lamont]

Hi BillTee:I had exactly the same problem initially. Unfortunately I can't remember what I did to correct it. I'm at work right now but will research further when I get home. In the meantime make sure that FS2002 assignments for the prop and mixture controls are set properly and that they are recognized by FS2002. Then try using Pete's program to assign the mixture to reversers for jets.

[Guest adameke777]

>I tried to set up my CH USB yoke using the mixture lever to >operate the reversers. No luck at all, FSUIPC doesn't see >the lever operation on page 7 when trying to calibrate. I >did assign a value ( 66242, I think, anyway it's right >number from the docs. ) Also, in your case, remember to assign the Mixture Lever to the Mixture Axis in the Flight Simulator control assignments. The 66292 number refers to the mixture axis in FS (check the FS configuration file for AXIS_MIXTURE_SET present in the control assignments section)Good luckAdam

[Guest ielchitz]

This is a great thread which I either did not notice, forgot about, or just plain read it when I was brain dead.I HATE hitting that damned F2 key when I land as well, and would love to configure those other two levers to work as reverse and spoilers.Ian.