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Ray Proudfoot

autothrottle and concorde in fs2002

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When using the Air France Concorde in fs2002,upon engaging autothrottle, set speed is not maintained rather the throttles are throttled back ultimately leading to a stall. I don't seem to be experiencing this with other planes.Any suggestions? I was unable to come up with anything in the archives.Rick

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Rick,More info is needed here such as which Concorde package are you using and what altitude are you engaging autothrottle?There are very specific rules for flying Concorde such as engaging afterburners for take-off which are then cancelled at 500AGL. They are switched on again at the accel point (Mach 0.95, 28,000ft and over the ocean) and are switched off at Mach 1.4 (Mach 1.7 in the real-world).Once at the accel point your speed should be 400kts when starting the climb. Increase speed as altitude allows and when you are approaching Mach 1.9 switch to Mach Hold and maintain Mach 2.02 in a cruise climb (500 fpm to FL570).Hope that helps,Cheers,Ray.

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Hi Ray,In this instance, I'm using the FS2002 Air France Concorde package by Alejandro Villa. I was going out for a few touch and goes and was attempting to fly by AP and autothrottle. I'm not sure why the autothrottle concsistently throttles me down.Rick

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Hi Rick,<>I've searched for his name in AvSim and can't find anything for Concorde. Have you a link to where I can download it?Cheers,

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Hi again Rick,I did a search using Google and found the file over at fsfreeware.com.I installed it and tried my test flight from Heathrow on the SN route to JFK.The autothrottle does not work properly on this AIR file and I crashed a couple of times. The basic problem is that N2 does not extend beyond 90 which is far too low. Once I disabled authothrottle I was able to control the aircraft properly and climbed to FL280 (400kts) and then turned on the afterburners. The 5,100fpm climb to FL300 performed okay as did the continued climb (at lower climb rate) all the way up to FL400 by which time I had reached M1.4 and at that point switched the afterburners off.The AIR file seems okay in all other respects but it cannot properly control the autothrottle.You could write to the author and ask him about autothrottle or just control it yourself whilst leaving altitude and heading to the AP but that would mean you couldn't leave it unattended. Maybe a word to the author would be best.Hope that helps,Cheers,

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%Thanks for bringing this one out I have the same package and have had the same problem.Could you recommend a decent Concorde package. I have the above + an update which displays afterburners and transparent Visor.ThanksTerry BeddoesEGGP

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Hi Terry,I use se-conc.zip by John Schumacher (flightsim.com) but changed the AIR file to one by Paul R. Varn which I found to be the most realistic. The file is 2K2JOYPA.ZIP available at www.flightsim.com.Regarding the Air France Concorde I found the autothrottle behaved itself quite well once the aircraft was in a stable cruise climb at M1.8 at FL500. It just seems to be a problem during the initial subsonic phase of the flight.Cheers,

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Ray,Thanks for tracking this one down. I'll definitely give your suggested alternatives a try.Rick

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I use the default 2K Concorde with the Paul Varn air file as well. It's quite stable as long as you don't go over speed. The Concorde tables in 2K2 aren't as good as in 2K, but are okay if you pay attention to the Vmo and Mmo bars. Go Overspeed and the thing will shake out of the sky.One major problem is that in the real thing you use reversers to slow down, and in 2K2 reversers don't work off the ground. I've adapted the air file to fix this with spoilers, but that's totally unreal and it also moves the nose.One essential item missing from all the FS aircraft is proper fuel control. In the real Concorde you have to move fuel from the wings to the center to the tail at Mach 2 to have proper balance, and you can't in FS. The pump only moves between center and tail, so once one is empty, that's it. However, the sim doesn't seem to care about the plane being out of balance when at FL620, Mach 2.25.One final item of note. I maintain altitude and speed with AB on all the way across the pond to TOD (or from Hawaii to Australis in my case).

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Hi,Thanks for the info. I've since deleted that particular Concorde package from my system but I'm sure the others will find it useful.Cheers,

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Hi Scott,Much useful info and I suppose one day Concorde will be modelled the same as the real world version. Let's hope the real one is still flying :-)<>That is beyond the physical limits of the airframe. Concorde's ceiling is 60,000ft (normal cruise levels across the pond are FL530 - FL570) and its maximum speed is close to M2.02. Maybe 2.05 but not 2.25. I suspect the real world version would fall apart at that speed.I tned to control throttle manually up to M2.0 at which point I'll trust the A/T to to the business. Descent is also controlled manually.Cheers,

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Ray,><being out of balance when at FL620, Mach 2.25.>> >>That is beyond the physical limits of the airframe. >Concorde's ceiling is 60,000ft (normal cruise levels across >the pond are FL530 - FL570) and its maximum speed is close >to M2.02. Maybe 2.05 but not 2.25. I suspect the real world >version would fall apart at that speed.Beyond the real Concorde, yes, but not beyond the FS Concorde. I think most FS aircraft are made out of concrete. ;-) To this day I also still can't even get a proper stall. They just simply stop flying and fall flat out of the sky. A good stall would pitch the nose down, but I've never had that happen since FS98.I also keep trying to adapt the Concorde air files for my space plane, but I would need to hack the program to find the Concorde tables so I can get to FL1000, Mach 6.5. Can't be done, though.

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Is there an online guide to flying Concorde? Using the changes to the Aircraft.cfg Using the Autopilot, I have now managed to get it up to FL350 at about Mach .9 then everything started going pear shaped, speed started dropping, losing altitude, autopilot tries for a bigger angle of attack then it stalls, (contrails look like a big dipper) though the nose does not dip. What am I doing wrong? (probably upgrading direct from a passable 737 P.I.C. to Concorde Captain without passing go!!!!)

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The key thing is keep the Afterburners on after FL200 with full throttle and control your speed with climb speed. Once you pass FL300, start decreasing your climb speed and get up to Mach 1.5 or faster. The max is 2.04. When there, reduce throttle leaving AB on until you are at FL600 where you still leave AB on but reduce throttle.

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Hi Scott,I've just started flying (trying to fly) the concorde in FS2K2 and couldn't find an afterburner button on the panel anywhere. Any advice?Also where can I find the air file Paul Varn?I really want to get this plane to work.Regards,Boone

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You've hidden your profile so I can't send you details. If you want useful info please send me a request privately.Here, for the benefit of all, is a brief description on how to get to M2.02 at 57,000ft and still have fuel left when you get to JFK from London Heathrow...1. Load 100% fuel. You won't need it all but the balance can be tricky otherwise.2. Once lined up for departure switch on afterburners (SHIFT + F4) and engage full throttle. Rotate at 190kts and climb out at 2,000fpm at 250kts.3. At 500AGL switch off afterburners.4. Climb at 2,00fpm to FL280 (M0.95). Increase speed gradually to 400kts. At the accel point (just south-west of Cardiff in the Bristol Channel) engage afterburners and set climb rate to 5,100fpm until FL300. Maintain 400kts. Concorde needs to gain altitude very quickly to become efficient.5. At FL300 decrease climb rate to 3,100fpm. Maintain 400kts.6. At FL322 start to increase speed within aircraft limits.7. At FL360 decrease climb rate to 1,300fpm. Continue to increase speed within limits.8. At FL432 or upon reaching M1.4 disengage afterburners and reduce climb rate to 1150fpm.9. At FL443 reduce climb rate to 350fpm. Continue to accelerate.10. At FL470 reduce climb rate to 200fpm and continue to accelerate. You should now be close to Mach 2.0.11. Upon reaching M2.02 engage autothrottle and maintain M2.02. Continue to cruise-climb up to FL530 - FL570 but ensure TMo remains with 127 degrees Celsius. If too hot, slow down or descend.12. At the other end (200 miles from JFK) reduce speed to 350kts before starting descent at 3,000fpm.Approach speed should be 210kts slowing to 190kts and 160kts on touchdown. Keep your nose up but not too much or you will stop moving forward and will drop vertically like a stone. Landing Concorde is an art!Hope that helps. More details and a flight plan are included in the docs.Cheers,

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Hi Scott,<<,Beyond the real Concorde, yes, but not beyond the FS Concorde.>>The two are indistinguishable for me as I like to try and fly the FS version as closely as possible to the limitations of the real one.<>That's what Concorde does. Because of the amount of surface area of the delta wing it's impossible to stall (even the real one!). If you remember the awful Paris crash and the small footprint of the debris it was because the aircraft fell vertically because it couldn't stall like a conventional aircraft.It is difficult to fly this aircraft but that's why it has such a following. The challenge is tremendous!Cheers,

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Hi Scott,<>Sorry but you'll never make it across the pond using those rules. The afterburners are only use at take-off and at the accel point until reaching M1.4 (M1.7 in the real world). Concorde has sufficient power to continue to cruise-climb to M2.02 from M1.7 without afterburners. The only aircraft in the world that can do this.See my other message for details on how to fly Concorde. It works - honest! :-)Cheers,

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Ray,It works for me.I'd like to have the thing work like the real aircraft (since I have the docs on how to do it) but I've never been able to get to FL600, Mach 2.04 without AB all the way.I've gone from Dulles to Heathrow, and from Honolulu to Sydney this way. However, I didn't have lots of time and made sure it worked, but when I ever get some time I can certainly practice flying the real way. Right now, I was just testing RC for the long flights and didn't have the time for a 747 or A340.Also, as far as I know, in the real world there's no way anyone is going out of any US airport using afterburners. The noise abatement rules don't allow it.

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Hi Boone,<>SHIFT + F4 to toggle them on/off. Bring up the throttle levers - the white lights illuminate when they're on.<>Search for 2K2JOYPA.ZIP over at flightsim.com.Cheers,

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The actual switches are on the Throttle Quad. The switches are hidden under the throttles. Push those up a tad and you'll see them.

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My apologies, yes AB's are engaged at TO, but then cut off after TO when throttles are pulled back for noise abatement.

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Hi Scott,<>I'm surprised that keeping the afterburners on for so long dosn't eat up all your fuel.I think you'd struggle to get to FL600 unless you climbed at 100-200fpm but the problem there is that you run out of miles before needing to descend :-( There's also the temperature issue but maybe only for the 100% realistic pilots ;-)<>I can understand that compromises are necessary sometimes so no problems with that.<>Well, the BA Concorde certainly uses afterburners on take-off (as they all do presumably) as they'd never get airborne otherwise.Back in '98 I was waiting for a connection at JFK when I heard a loud roar only to see the 2.30pm flight take-off back to Heathrow. It certainly had the afterburners engaged. Concorde has a special dispensation with the New York authorities.Cheers,

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Since this is being discussed, and Ray likes to fly like the real thing, I'll try to accurately list some basics. I'm sure Ray can add/correct where necessary. I need to practice more.JFK to Heathrow(Skipping programming and checking the INS and aircraft prep and engine start)(Concorde has no APU, so skipping the disengaging of external power and air after engine start)Drop nose to 5 degrees, just clearing the forward view for taxi.After being cleared for take-off, the standard "Concorde Countdown" is done (3 to 1, throttles), then full throttle and ABs applied.After Take-off, throttles are pulled back and AB's disengaged for noise abatement.When clearing around FL180 the nose is raised.Concorde climbs at Mach 0.95 3000fpm to FL270. Speed is kept below Mach 1 until past Nantucket Island.Afterburners and full throttle are applied, climbing around 3000fpm down to 1000 fpm. Fuel is now pumped to the tail.Automatically, the engine inlet doors close down at Mach 1.3, keeping the air intake flow to less than Mach 1.At Mach 1.7, AB's are disengaged. Engine will remain at 100% throttle.Mach 2 is achieved at 50,190 feet (or around FL510), about half-way.Concorde uses one of three special SST route tracks much further South from the 5 subsonic route tracks of the day.Concorde will vary from 56,000'-58.000' due to temperature variation, still climbing until TOD, and at Mach 2.04. Technically Concorde can go to 62,000' over Mach 2.2. The extra power is used to continue a shallow climb until descent (TOD).At around 30 degrees West, pilots will now do a calculation of correct position and report to Shanwich.Descent will begin at 150 miles from the Irish coast, by maintaining altitude with 1/3 throttle pullback. When Mach 1.55 is reached, descent to FL370 is begun at 70% power. It takes 100 miles to decelerate to Mach 1 from cruise.At Mach 1.25, Concorde naturally descends.Subsonic speed has to be reached 55 nautical miles from the Irish coast. At FL370, Concorde needs to be subsonic.Nose is lowered to 5 degrees again at about FL180-FL200.(skipped inflight reversers since it can't be done in FS)Initial approach speed is 200 knots, with touchdown at 160 knots.Landing angle is at about 11 degrees.Reversers stowed at 40 knots.Total time: 3.5 hours, about 25,000 gallons of fuel used (about the same as a 747 on this route)

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