What is the copyright for?

[Guest SoarPics]

ARGHH!!!!This subject is really growing monotonous. Folks come into the forums of this and other sites and bemoan the pirates and their dastardly acts. As if that can make a difference? Nope, the pirates are already counting the money they make off the hobby's freeware authors. It is the responsibilty of the authors to stiputate WHAT can be done with their creations, and by whom.Case in point: The Cessna 150H recently released by GForce Team. In their readme they clearly stipulate that their creation is to be hosted by three sites; Flightsim, Avsim, and Simviation. Have you seen the file at any other site? I haven't. Not Ferdy's, not Miller's, not any other site. And the authors clearly state in their copyright notice that no money can be made from their creation (though I would have worded the copyright differently to try to cover as many loopholes as possible).It is long past time for authors to take a proactive stance on protecting their copy rights. Getting upset with the pirates AFTER they steal is futile. I've long since typed my fingers blue with suggestions, so I'll only say this to the hobby's authors: Take charge, be responsible for protecting your rights as best you can, and stand firm about who can and cannot host your creations.The pirates are stealing only because it is made so easy. Don't make it easy.And a final word to "Zapped". With your attitude about people's copy rights, don't be surprised to read in any number of readme copyright notices that you are excluded from use.OK, my rant is done... now I feel better.Regards,

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"It is long past time for authors to take a proactive stance on protecting their copy rights."From what you say, one can jump to the conclusion that freeware authors need to hire attorneys, and spend hours researching every "if, and or but" prior to releasing the fruits of their labor. If that's what people truly believe, then freeware is at risk. When users would rather say "quit whining" and pander to the pirate's agenda, why in the heck would we want to put out work? Actually in my case, the answer is I put out work in spite of people with such opinions, in favor of the ones who simply drop me a line from time to time asking how I'm doing....But others with less energy to deal with such attitudes will drop away from freeware. It's up to the community to protect freeware if they truly want it, because as individuals, we simply do not have time to spend hours on license agreements and investigations that won't protect us from offshore pirate sites anyway. And that's what this thread was about. I can't understand why that is of such concern for you. It is because of the offshore sites that I appreciate threads like this one..... Part of the community doing what we can't do alone as individuals....

[Guest SoarPics]

Hi John,Perhaps I'm reading your reply incorrectly, but to say I "pander to the pirates agenda" is wrong. Do a search here for SoarPics, and you'll see just how wrong you are.The purpose of my previous post was to put the onus where it must begin: The authors. How can the community protect the authors when they fail to do all that they can (in the form of a firm and well thought out copyright notice) to protect themselves? It doesn't take an attorney to create just such a notice.A good place to start... let's stop calling it "freeware". The pirates see this as a license to steal. They believe that since the author clearly said it is free, then anybody can do anything with it that they please.John, your posts are usually well thought out and to the point. Your reply to my previous post was to the point... I'm not interested in any form of argument. Just reasoned solutions.Surely those of us who do indeed care about copyrights can come up with a copyright notice better than what is being used within this hobby now.I await your ideas. Hell, I'm waiting for any ideas!!!Regards,

[Guest]

Another big problem is the continued piracy of payware music and the recording industry or government failure to stop it. How can a group of flight simulation enthusiasts stop what the billion dollar recording industry can't? I've heard the problem talked about too much, and the solution talked about too little; support the internet tax now! Until there is enough interest, lobbying, and money the pirates will continue to sail on the high seas.

[Guest Scott Campbell]

Greg,Please forgive me, but it is NOT the authors responsibility to make sure their material isn't stolen. Authors have and DO stipulate where files are to be found, how they are to be distributed, and where files can and cannot be used.Pirates couldn't give a flying rat's ass about copyright notices and stipulations.Yes, there are many, many files on Ferdy's system, and other places, with the stipulation STRIPPED OUT. Ask Anniette. There are at least a dozen unauthorized sites with her repaints that were stolen from AVSIM.There are hundreds of other files where the author stipulates that they cannot be used for commercial uses, and list all the rights and locations of the files.And yet, there they are - on the pirates sites and on the pirates FOR PAY CD's.To say that putting the words "Do not steal this. It is for AVSIM only" will stop the pilfering of files is ludicrous, if not totally naive.And I know you are not naive, nor do you support pirating of anything.It's just an odd statement, in eggect: "It is the author's responsibility to make sure their work isn't stolen"."It is the responsibility of the authors to stipulate WHAT can be done with their creations, and by whom."Yes, and that's EXACTLY what's in most copyright notices. And yet, that doesn't appear to have stopped the files being bagged. The swag doesn't stop with a few words, only if people stop purchasing the stolen materials, or stop going to sites, like FSPLANET.COM where files are known to be stolen.Good rule of thumb: If it's a "compilation", there is no doubt it's stolen material. If copyright and info readme's are way later than the file dates, good bet it's stolen. If there is no copyright or info docs, good bet it's stolen. If you write to the site and ask where they got a file and they say it's theirs or someone uploaded it to them, have them send you the source for it, or tell you exactly what tools were used. Then have them show you the commercial license for those tools. Bet you never hear from them again.So to say it's the author's fault is, well, silly.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

I agree the copyright notice issue needs to be addressed. But my interest in these threads is for the information I like finding on this site. I don't have time to find these pirate sites--I would have never known about the site posted in the lead post had it gone unpublished. To such offshore sites, copyright notices are meaningless. The only way to stop those pirates is to educate the community in threads like this--that's why your response surprised me. There are really two separate issues in play--how to design a copyright notice which will work with 99 pct of the "law fearing" sites, and how to educate people about rogue offshore pirate sites.My copyright notices are pretty broad. I mentioned in an earlier post I am even comfortable with FSPlanet hosting my freeware, as long as people can access the files without paying. Periodically, I check FSPlanet for my work (never found it) and to see if I can download friends or peers files freely. So far, their files are about as easy to access as flightsim.com's. Oddly enough, of the sites which asked permission to host my files (which I don't require in the license), all have been offshore. How's that for irony!Generally, I agree with "zapped" about one thing. If a site offers our software or work freely, then by the very term freeware, we shouldn't stand in the way of such sites. I agree that authors who have issues with that need to either call it something different, or offer exclusive, site specific licenses. For many reasons, Avsim is the only site I upload to now. Autoland 2002, my most recent proggie, was uploaded only here. But I released it so people could have access to it, and I hope in a year or two I see it at several sites--as long as none of them are fleecing the public with "non-profit" scams.One last issue, and it relates to the recent issues with Simubuild and copyright law. Even if an author doesn't restrict distribution through a license, they still own copyright in their work, and if circumstances dictate, they have a right to ask a hosting site to cease and desist. I can't recall the product, but I remember something went on the market a few years back, and stores were instructed to pull the item for one reason or another. Even if an item is freeware, the author owns it, and can decide if the product lives or dies. Whether others listen, that's another story, and it's up to the freeware owner to determine what action to take.

[Guest SoarPics]

Hi Scott,"So to say it's the author's fault is, well, silly."I didn't say it was the author's fault when a thief steals from him/her. Again, my point is that authors need to do more than simply offer their creations as "freeware" with one or two stipulations.And you're right about me not being naive. I've had my share of copyright grief concerning my photography. That grief has cost me money. My experiences allow me to foresee the damage that can be inflicted upon this hobby by the pirates who take advantage of its addon authors. And with each passing day there seems to be more and more pirates. The time to act is NOW. Clearly, a copyright notice is like a lock... and a lock only keeps an honest man honest. No copyright notice will stop all the thieves all the time. But there must be a place to start, a common ground that all authors share in the form of a copyright notice.Let's stop the wrangling here, and start coming up with solutions that MIGHT make a difference. It won't cost anything to try.And John, I agree with your point about educating folks (especially the newest members of the community). I've posted warnings before about the pirates, at this site and others. I'd like to think some have heeded those warnings.Regards,

[Guest Scott Campbell]

Greg,I agree. There must be some new way to keep pirates from gaining access to these files.The easiest way I can think of is to password protect zip files. Again, this only helps to some extent, but at least will make it slightly more difficult or time-consuming for the Ferdy's of the world to cop things.I am thinking of a method like this: Authorized sites have a list of passwords for each file in a DB. When someone DL's a file, they have to send an e-mail to the site or author to get the password.The problem with this method is the time to implement an automated DB system, or even worse, a manual system, to get the password. And since Ferdy got files with the current protection system AVSIM has, and AVSIM has already tracked all the piracy to Ferdy anyway, this probably won't do anything.So that leaves the same kind of systems that commercial vendors use, only you don't pay anything.It's a difficult matter, and I have no easy solution without securing a site completely, which is more than likely where it's headed. This may not be a problem, or it may be, or it may do nothing.Whatever the solution, pirates will always gain access, and freeware developers will quit, and commercial developers will go out of business or quit as well.And it's a real shame.I think AVSIM should bring this subject up prominently at the conference in September. And if I know Tom, it will be. Right Tom? ;-)

[Guest]

So, unless authors make it technically impossible to pirate their work it is OK to pirate it?That's what you're saying here, and that's one of the oldest excuses pirates have ever used.I wonder who will come up with the "if it's online it's supposed to be free and I'm only punishing corporations for abusing the internet to make money" line which is also used quite often and is just as ridiculous.

[PeterR 9]

Yes, authors have to take action beyond including a copyright statement. At least in the US, copyrights and patents are but a tool for enforcement. They don't mean much unless the copyright or patent holder enforces them. In fact, with regard to patents, if you don't make good faith efforts to enforce them against infringers, you may lose their protection (apparently courts don't like passive patent holders).But, alas, it's quite a chore to keep abreast of infringers especially in a global marketplace. Only as a unified community, with its many eyes and ears, can it be possible.

[Guest]

Pirates don't care whether it is called "freeware", "shareware", or whatever.They'll take whatever they can and sell it.Most of them don't even bother to look up the price (if any) of a product, they just put it on their websites or CDs after removing protections (and sometimes copyright notices etc.).Just about the only thing that prevents them are elaborate protection schemes based on multiple levels of hardware locks and license keys that all have to be correct at the same time in order for the product to function correctly.That's the main reason why people were protesting Windows XP originally. The copy protection was so good it was threatening to be hard to pirate...Copyright notices may deter some casual pirates, they won't do the first thing to even slow down the professional (except maybe for having a good laugh at the person who wrote it up).

[Guest SoarPics]

From jwenting:"So, unless authors make it technically impossible to pirate their work it is OK to pirate it?That's what you're saying here, and that's one of the oldest excuses pirates have ever used.I wonder who will come up with the "if it's online it's supposed to be free and I'm only punishing corporations for abusing the internet to make money" line which is also used quite often and is just as ridiculous."Take a few minutes to read the last half dozen or so posts to this thread, then you can decide whether or not to edit what you wrote above.

[Guest]

You are quite right that the issue doesn't stand alone and won't be stopped by us.Indeed huge multinational corporations are incapable of doing more than slowing the crooks down a bit, hopefully just long enough that they can get back their investment in the product before it proliferates on the pirate networks.In the 1980s and early 1990s hardware locks were pretty much safe, but by now those have mostly been cracked. They're also extremely cumbersome to use, as you need another one for each piece of software and they often interfere with each other so you have to constantly add and remove them from your machine (I know of one case in which a lock for a piece of software interfered with a lock for another piece of software where the two were designed to be used together (which thus was impossible)).The future may be in biometrics data used as an access key. If this data can be encrypted in such a way as to be impossible to replace in the software without crippling it, it might be a way. Problem is that the required equipment is as yet quite expensive and cumbersome (though that is changing), and the process requires human interaction for every license given out (you'd need to recompile the executable to the application for each customer. Can be done when there are 10, but 10000 or more?).The war against piracy is a hightech war of weapons and defense. At the moment the bad guys have the advantage, sadly, and unless something is found quickly to take back that advantage that can be used in mass cheaply I fear that the war may be lost which would mean the end of all but customcreated work (as that is relatively easy to track down, if you keep a record of who took delivery of a product you know the source if a pirated version is found).

[Guest SoarPics]

Scott,"Whatever the solution, pirates will always gain access, and freeware developers will quit, and commercial developers will go out of business or quit as well.And it's a real shame."Yep. :-mad I like your ideas about password protecting zip files. Clearly, no one solution will tackle the problem of thieves doing what they do. I believe the battle against the pirates must also include legal remedies, both civil and criminal.Onward,

[Guest GerrishGray]

Well, I think the simple solution to this would be to close down the internet and not share our valuable work with anyone, eh? And of course all you guys whingeing out there because you think someone is making a fortune out of your freeware work wouldn't dream of uploading it to a Brazilian library operating on a similar basis to AVSIM etc., would you?Personally, I am only too pleased if someone wants to distribute my stuff to a new audience of 'simmers who don't presently know how to download it from AVSIM or similar (or simply haven't got the facilities). Of course I would rather participate in any genuine, worthwhile, profit they make out of their efforts, and do appreciate it when my copyright is properly acknowledged, but let's get real here ...The one concession I'll make to this is to remember to make a point in my future readme's of thanking AVSIM etc. for making my work freely available, complete with links, so that unwitting purchasers know where they can get future stuff for free!Kind RegardsGerrish(Just a Flightsim enthusiast who enjoys sharing his hobby with others, in between earning a living from other, professional, work in the IT industry)