FSBUS Switch Issues

[Guest Raafie75]

Hi guys, just me again.I'm still having issues running rotary encoders.I've found out that the standard rotary encoder I'm using is off in the detent position. Will this cause an issue with REDec?If you haven't guessed I am still having problems with running REDec.I tried getting pricing on Knitter switches but they work out to be around $8 each australian then you add on shipping! I have tried a Knitter thanks to Glenn Weston and it works perfectly!I tried making the 2 ganged 12 position rotary switches but with no success either. I'm comming to my wits ends comming up with a rotary switch for tuning !PLEASE HELP!!!!Kind Regards,

[oal331 0]

I use Rotary encoders with Redec, almost without a problem. Some problems are from FsBus side in last versions and Dirk is working on it.I repeat that every rotary encoder may have equal or not number of detens and pulses. So if you have 20 pulses and 20 detens you have in every detent a key send, but when you have 30 detens and 15 pulses it is every 2.In my personnal opinion and as i can read in forums, the knitter type switches are easy to use, but they loose key sends when turn them too fast (i.e turn fast to change heading)The 12 position rotary switches, they have also extra job to do and they are not so soft to turn them.RegardsEddie ArmaosAthens-Greece

[Guest Raafie75]

Hi Eddie,Could you please provide if you could, how you setup FSBUS to use REDec please?Brad.

[Guest GeorgeDorkofikis]

Hi Brad,I'll try to explain as simple as possible what's going on with the rotary encoders.I did a huge research on the matter that took me about 4 months to get settled on what to use.First, as you know and already said there are actually 4 types of rotaries you can use with FSBUS.1. The normal, big, crude 12 position rotary SWITCH.This one requires additional wiring and I say it's crude because the feeling is totaly unrealistic. Occupies 4Bits in FSBUS key card. Cost about 2Euro each.2. The BCD rotary encoder. Much like the 1 above but working with a different mechanism giving a unique decimal value to 4 (or more) pins according to the position selected. Also called as Absolute rotary encoder. Occupies 4 Bits in FSBUS key card. Cost about 10Euro+ each.3. The Knitter like Switches. Those are mechanical rotaries that close two a contact between two (2) pins when turned on one direction and another contact between two (2) different pins when turned the other way. Some have reported that it works well, others that are loosing 'pulses' when turned a bit faster than normal.Occupies 4Bits in FSBUS. Should occupy only 2Bits (see below). Cost about 5Euro+ each.4. The phase-shift rotary encoders. These are mechanical rotary encoders with 3 pins. When turned on one direction they make a contact between the common pin (usually the middle) and another pin (say it A), followed by another contact between the common pin and the third pin (Say it :(. The difference between the two contacts and which contact was closed first determines the way of rotation (CC/CCW). The two contacts follow one the other by a few msec difference, but the logic circuits are fast enough to detect this.This kind of rotary is also called Incremental as it will only give you a rotation indication and a number of contacts but not related to the actual position of the selector.Because the rotary is making contact to both pins with just the difference of time between the two contacts, it is required for the rotation to be decoded.That's what REDEC does. By using logic gates in a very smart way the REDEC will determine the way of rotation and the number of pulses sent by the rotary. The use of logic gates also performs the required de-bouncing (will not get into that).Now, according to the rotation and number of pulses the REDEC closes two contacts on the FSBUS key card. In simple words it translates the mixed pulses into a format similar to the Knitter switch function.These encoders are available in many variations according to the number of detends (with and without), number of pulses per rotation etc. It's best to have the same number of detents and pulses. Occupies 4Bits in FSBUS. Should occupy only 2Bits (See below).Cost varies btn About 3Euro-300Euro each. (For the optical ones, Ouch!)How to connect a type4 encoder to the FSBUS key card:1. Connect the rotary encoder to the REDEC input. Make sure the middle pin gets the 5V.2. The REDEC has two outputs with 2Pins each. Connect the first 2 output pins (i.e. UP)to an FSBUS key row at SubID 03. Connect the other 2 output pins (i.e. DOWN) to the FSBUS key card onto the immediately next pins. i.e. (# = pin on key card)SubIDs0..1..2..3..4..5..6..7#..#..#..#..#..#..#..##..#..#..#..#..#..#..#^Up^Down4. Leave 2 pin columns free and connect the next rotary as above.5. In FSBUS, Add a rotary and select 'CONRAD' as the type. Press Ok at the warning, after all you do have REDEC. Turning the rotary in Auto-Sense should give you green light and positive or negative value according to the rotation direction. Invert it if required.As I said above type 3 (Knitter) and type 4 (Encoders) rotaries occupy 4Bits (pin columns) in FSBUS while they only require 2Bits. Because this way you loose half the connections of the key card, I already told Dirk about this and hopefully it will be fixed some time in the future.Hope this helps. Don't hesitate to ask for more help if you get stuck!RegardsGeorge Dorkofikis

[tigert 0]

>1. The normal, big, crude 12 position rotary SWITCH.>This one requires additional wiring and I say it's crude>because the feeling is totaly unrealistic. Occupies 4Bits in>FSBUS key card. Cost about 2Euro each.This is not necessarily unrealistic. Depends on what you use it for. For radios, it is not too bad at all. One can make it lighter to turn by shortening the spring inside, but reassembling it again after finding the two ball bearings and the spring from your carpet takes a while to get used to :)But the thing is, anything that outputs 123412341234 when turned "up" and 432143214321 when turned down can be used. Needs to be a multiple of 4 (12 = 4x3) It does not need to be a 12-position rotary. If you can find, lets say, a 24-position high quality switch with a nice feeling, it can be used as well. I agree the downside with this is that you need LOTS of soldering, but it is very reliable, works fine and does the job.>2. The BCD rotary encoder. Much like the 1 above but working>with a different mechanism giving a unique decimal value to 4>(or more) pins according to the position selected. Also>called as Absolute rotary encoder. Occupies 4 Bits in FSBUS>key card. Cost about 10Euro+ each.These usually have nice "analog" numbers too, so making a vintage-looking radio, ADF or transponder with these is an interesting possibility.>3. The Knitter like Switches. Those are mechanical rotaries>that close two a contact between two (2) pins when turned on>one direction and another contact between two (2) different>pins when turned the other way. Some have reported that it>works well, others that are loosing 'pulses' when turned a bit>faster than normal.>Occupies 4Bits in FSBUS. Should occupy only 2Bits (see>below). Cost about 5Euro+ each.And seemingly impossible to find in small quantities!Tuomas

[Guest Raafie75]

Hi guys,Thanks again for your very much appreciated information but I've gone over my REDec circuit once more and still I can't find any wiring problems.I'm getting it to respond within FSBUS but everytime I turn the rotary it gives me positive and negative responses in the same direction. I hope you can understand what I'm saying.I'm connecting it to pins next to each other like you suggested George and follwed your advice to the letter but can't get it to work. I'm pulling my hair out!!!!!!!!! :(Regards,

[tigert 0]

>Hi guys,>>Thanks again for your very much appreciated information but>I've gone over my REDec circuit once more and still I can't>find any wiring problems.>>I'm getting it to respond within FSBUS but everytime I turn>the rotary it gives me positive and negative responses in the>same direction. I hope you can understand what I'm saying.>>I'm connecting it to pins next to each other like you>suggested George and follwed your advice to the letter but>can't get it to work. I'm pulling my hair out!!!!!!!!! :(What does the "key test" show? I havent used the redec stuff myself, so I dont know :(Tuomas

[Guest Raafie75]

As I turn the rotary (in any direction) I get a output flicking between each key it occupies (2 of them). I'm supposed to get a '1' in one direction and a "-1" in the oposite. At the moment I'm getting both in the same direction and at a erratic rate.Brad.

[tigert 0]

>As I turn the rotary (in any direction) I get a output>flicking between each key it occupies (2 of them). I'm>supposed to get a '1' in one direction and a "-1" in the>oposite. At the moment I'm getting both in the same direction>and at a erratic rate.What I looked into REDEC once when it was announced, it is supposed to separate those, so I'd think the problem currently must be in your REDEC circuit. The pulses from redec should AFAIK be already separated by direction.Tuomas

[Guest GeorgeDorkofikis]

Yeah... Sounds like a REDEC problem.I had exactly the same error on my first tests and after I looked carefully for about... 3 weeks, I found out that I had done the routing wrong!Did you use the ready-made PCB from the PDF or did you make your own?George DorkofikisAthens, Greece

[Guest Raafie75]

I made it from a vero board but I've double checked the wiring about 4 times? What I'll do is make a new one and see what happens?I haven't made PCB's yet, they've all been from Vero Boards, Com, Key & the LED boards. I look at making PCB's but it looks all too hard and messy.Regards,

[Guest Glenn Weston]

Brad, Do you have a postscript image of the board, If you want to email me the image I can etch a board for you in no time at all, at least you can then use it as a reference when making up the vero units.Glenn.

[Guest Raafie75]

The only PCB layout is the one within the REDec PDF and it looks like its not to scale. Maybe someone like George might have something? Do you George or anyone out there?Thanks again Glenn, maybe this will allow us to build something better for our rotary's. I've spoke with Dick Smith where I got my rotary from and there no longer stocking them but there's plenty around the country we could get our hands on. Maybe an alternative for when you run out of your knitters?Regards,Brad.

[iwik 0]

Hi Brad,Did you buy from Dick Smith their part no p7531.If you did then this is your problem.I just spent the last few hours with the same resultsyou have.I had some better ones which i had forgotten about.they werebought from Farnell Part number 109-113.I was using this for my Elevator trim.As soon a fitted it.The trim worked perfectly.When you get the REDEC board going correctly you should be able tosay put it on a bench connect 5v up to it.Put your multimeter on ohmsand connect it to either of the two outputs and when you turn in one direction you should see the meter(use anologue)move f/s quicly as encoder is turned.Now turn in opposite dir,no reading should occur,you may get a little flick,thats no problem.If this is okthen connect it up to fs.I built my one up on Vero board.From what you describe im certain its your rotary encoder.If you need any morehelp,please ask,as i have just finished my one,about 15mins ago.It really works well.Good luckLes(NZ)

[Guest Glenn Weston]

G'day Les,I just tried searching for that part number at Farnell's online catalogue but could not find it, I was going to try & cross reference it to RS-Components, do you have any other details on the rotary, like manufacturer, or Manufacturers P/No., how many detents is it ?Thanks Glenn.