Business between cockpit builder

[Guest SHORT360]

Roberto,I am not insulting anybody. I just give an opinion and I stay on it.My son is deeply involved with airplane maintenance companies and I know about what I am talking.As you said, it is a free market and if there are some people willing to pay whatever it costs, it is their decisions.I stay on mine and encourage fellows cockpit builders to be carefull with people willing to make profit on their account.That's it.Cheers,Roger

[Guest Dodiano]

Well if that is your opinion I can live with it just remember we make profit not to Rip Off anyone just plane bussiness and help a couple of guys...Regards,Roberto Soriano

[Guest SHORT360]

Roberto,It's fine. Dont take it personnally.CheersRoger

[Guest Dodiano]

Nope no problem here man :-beerchug Take care.Roberto

[Guest LGA]

Some good points have been made on this thread. I just look at it this way, I think of our community as the people that are building their flightdeck or have a legit business that helps us build our cockpits, flightdeck solutions/PM etc. In my opinion, those who abuse others with exaggerated prices are not part of our community, just a bunch of hustlers on the sideline.

[Guest rprather]

You bring up a respectable point, and it's one I deal with every day. Real aircraft parts are EXPENSIVE, and unfortunately eBay has made many believe that this stuff is dirt cheap.A good example is the Boeing 757/767 Radio Comm Panels that showed up on eBay some time ago. There was a HUGE bidding frenzy on 5 of them. A few builders were LUCKY enough to win these panels for $200-$300 each, while the last one was scored for $600! I thought this was insane, until I spent the next month calling companies looking for this EXACT same part. People literally LAUGHED at me when I asked them to sale them to me for less than $1,000. A few companies said they would sale them to me for $1,200 if I bought 5 units, while some quoted as high as $2,800 EACH for "as removed" units. I eventually found a company who would sale them for $700, but I had to negotiate with more than 18 companies to find them.I also had a real 757/767 EVAC panel a few years years ago that I bought off eBay for $75. I traded it to a sim builder for some nice remade knobs. Now that I need this part it is nowhere to be found (he wants his of course :-). I never saw another one on eBay or anywhere else. I ended up paying a shop like $500 for it, but it looked virtually like new. I could tell stories like this for days about myself and other sim builders.Finding cheap aircraft parts on eBay is like finding a real diamond Cartier wrist watch at a resale shop, or finding a nice Mercedez-Benz at GoodWill. It's excellent for those who are fortunate enough to find these deals, but you should consider yourself forunate indeed as it could very well be the last time you ever see that part on there :-)Respectfully,RobertP.S. - This message is in no way meant to have a negative or "angry" tone. This conversation pops up on this forum every few years as the price of this stuff continues to climb :-) Until airplane are about about 40-50 years old, you can expect to pay top dollar for the stuff.

[Guest coenc]

>just a bunch of hustlers on the sideline.>There's plenty around

[LawnDart 19]

3 of the best items in my sim were donated to me and I am forever grateful to this person. He donated a real 777 faceplate, along with 2 747 EFIS panels.These items were free, however I spent a weekend at his place, programming his EPIC system and installing several control systems, so I guess the trade was even. :-)This hobby is getting to be quite expensive, and I can only assume it's because local boneyards are getting a lot of calls lately for parts that have never seen the light of day. Classic supply and demand in action.

[Guest SHORT360]

>>>>>>>These items were free, however I spent a weekend at his place, programming his EPIC system and installing several control systems, so I guess the trade was even.>>>>>>>>that's the kind a deal we may all expect. It is a model of what should be our every day. Gratulations.Roger

[Guest SHORT360]

Robert,There is undoutbtely a big raise in the prices. I followed the bids regarding the 757 radio panels and I find it insane, indeed.If there are some "rare" rich cockpit builders ready to spent as much as they would spent for a real plane, it is their right.I believe that the majority of us are not rich, and so me, because if I would I would never spent so much time building a cockpit. I would just buy the plane. As an PPL IR, I used to fly a lot of advanced single and twin engines. Now I cant afford it anymore and that's why I build a cockpit simulator. So I will ever try, and help other to find the best way to come to the best result with the best price. When some plastic dummies parts are not in relation to the asked price, I will say loud and clear. So also with some real parts. It is obvious that some sharks ruling aircraft boneyards are just discoreving a new way to increase their profits. It is their right. It is our right to say "STOP THE INSANITY" and "NOT" to follow the trend.best to allRoger

[Guest rprather]

Roger,>> If there are some "rare" rich cockpit builders ready to spent as much as they would spent for a real plane, it is their right.I believe that the majority of us are not rich, and so me, because if I would I would never spent so much time building a cockpit. I would just buy the plane. I certainly understand where you are coming from, but I assure you that myself and others are FAAAAR from rich. I am a college student on financial aid . I save money during the summer months and buy one panel at a time, bartering whenever possible. I GUARANTEE my sim will cost no where near the cost of a real 777 though ($100,000,000 ea).. LOL!! The list price of a new 777 MCP is more than $150,000 by itself.Someone who is willing to spend $500 on an FMC manual is not necessarily rich, they just understand what the stuff is worth.>> When some plastic dummies parts are not in relation to the asked price, I will say loud and clear. Keep in mind too that the price of plastics, has gone up substantially. Panels that these companies used to make for $5 or $10, may now cost them double. As much as I'm sure they'd love to help out all builders, they have to make some kind of profit . Also, these companies have QUICKLY increasing time and financial investments into their hardware.I know it probably seems like prices are just arbitrarily increasing, but it's a lot more involved than what seems obvious.>> It is our right to say "STOP THE INSANITY" and "NOT" to follow the trend.Well, the trend is "more realism", so you certainly don't want that to stop. As companies continue to make more realistic hardware, you can expect to pay more. Unfortunately with simming, most people say, "I want the most realistic sim possible." That statement by itself is overgeneralized. As with any project you must set parameters. If, for instance, you want to buy Peter's ELITE series panels, but you only want to budget for NOVA, that's the choice you make. That's like walking into Armani and telling them their clothes are too expensive. That's why they make Foley's department store .You must understand that there are a lot of unseen issues involved with the pricing of hardware, software, and electronics in this hobby.Robert

[Guest SHORT360]

Robert,>>>>>I certainly understand where you are coming from, but I assure you that myself and others are FAAAAR from rich. I am a college student on financial aid>>>>>>>>> I have raised three children, which are today 32, 28 and 22 years old. Two of them are still students. Sorry, but all college students I know which "are on financial aid" are not able to buy items like the one your sell and do not drive the sportcar your are driving. When they work during the summer they simply need that money to survive the rest of the year. As a filmmaker I am not specially in the need, but I could never afford for one of my kids such items at such prices. The example you mention about Armani is a good one. Knowing personnaly a close competitor to Armani, a certain Nino Cerruti, I can confirm you that some clothes sold in Europe or the US for let's say 1000 $ are produced somewhere else in the world by very poor people for 10$.I just pray all gods of all religions that this mentality may not invade our hobby.Best to allRoger

[Guest jaapverduijn]

Greetings!"(...) that's the kind a deal we may all expect (...)"I guess it was maybe a year and a half ago that I posted a lot of sim hardware and software in the swap forum, worth about three hundred dollars. All fairly new, because I only got into flight simming with FS2002. Now I never ask any money for something that I don't need/want anymore, so the deal was: I won't send it anywhere, but anybody who lives close enough to my place in the Netherlands can come and collect all the stuff for free.Bloke came around, was very happy with all the stuff I gave him so I threw in a few extras, to which he did not say no. Over a cup of coffee while chatting about flight simming he informed me that as a token of his great joy he would burn me a CD-ROM of an ATC program he happened to be involved with, and then he trotted off, carrying home a big cardboard box with some hundreds of dollars worth of free stuff.Needless to say that I never heard of the bugger again. Well, I had my doubts anyway whether the promised CD-ROM (don't remember the exact name, only thing I know is it had "Radar" in it) would be legal, so in a sense I was relieved, having a stern view of piracy. But geez... if I don't ask for anything in return, and the happy beneficiary still promises to send me something, then I consider it a VERY small man who subsequently disappears into silence. Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

[Guest SHORT360]

Jaap,Sade story, indeed. But you know, there is always a moment in our life where we all are VERY small. The positive thing about is to be aware of it and fight against, so we may become a little greater.Be well tooRoger

[Guest rprather]

Tomato (long "A") Tomato (Short "A") ...>> Sorry, but all college students I know which "are on financial aid" are not able to buy items like the one your sell and do not drive the sportcar your are driving. LOL! The slackers.:-) But I AM on financial aid! The choices I have made in this hobby have recently afforded me more opportunities. The sports car project is sponsored. It's show season now, so I will compete and build simultaneously. Many of the parts I get are traded for services. Get all of their computers networked with Project Magenta/Pro MFD, in exchange for some airline seats... it's worth it for some people and saves me $1,000. I've been looking for landing light switches that I can get for simmers, and right now the lowest price I can find is $200 each. If you want to pay that much I'll give you the company's contact info and you are welcome to try and talk them down . I can get Boeing 777 engine fire switches and CDUs. But the first is $2,600 and the latter is $9,000, both "as removed"!! So I would LEAP IN THE AIR to find one at $1,000 on eBay or elsewhere :-) I'm not upset at all, but It seems that you don't understand how wildly airline parts fluxuate in price. There is usually 1 company SOMEWHERE willing to let stuff go cheap, but you will spend $$$ and time to find them.I've got a challenge for you... if you see any parts for sale that you feel are unfairly priced, I will happily give you the part numbers. I would be very happy to buy the parts from you if you can find them cheaper. Or if you call around to engravers and try to have your own panels made, I believe you will find the time investment exhausting by itself. Not to mention the LASER time they will charge you. You would have to buy and sale 5 sets of anything just to break even.Why eat out when you can catch, clean and cook your own fish?Some food for thought,Robert