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Guest B737NGGUY

Concerned Simmer................................

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Hi Guys,I have been following this forum for about 2 years and it has been extremely helpful. I was a real world pilot myself for about 4 1/2 years prior to being furloughed in December of 2001. I'm often amazed of the knowledge some of you possess even though you have never flown real aircraft.Regretfully my first post, or offering to this forum, is not really a positive one. My apologies. Earlier this year, Roger Wielgus had posted a thread about the costs associated with home cockpit supplies. Although I may not agree 100% with everything he said, he did make some very interesting and correct statements. Some of which concern me as well.Please understand I have never expected anything free in this world. And perhaps its not the actual price of some of the items as much as it is the method in which some sellers operate. I for one agree wholeheartedly that a person has the right to sell an item at a price he/she sees fit. I have no squabble with this. After all, operating a business can be very expensive when you consider such things as taxes, licenses, an accountant, liability insurance, etc. etc.So perhaps its not the cost that has my butt in a knot as much as it is the manner inwhich a few operate. Case in point: I have been building a 737 cockpit for about 2 years now. Initially I had chosen to simulate the 757 but later elected for the 737 due to the availability of parts. During the initial 757 phase, a gentlemen from overseas had offered to sell me a 737 mode control panel for $200.00 minus some specific hardware. At the time, I passed over the offer. Some months later when I chose to go the 737 route, I emailed the gentlemen back to see if the item was still available. It was. For a whopping price of $1000.00. Wow I said. I asked if he had found the missing hardware which would have justified the cost. No he politely stated. Cost and demand was his response. Ok I said and again passed over the offer. A week later a fellow simmer contacts me all excited about a 737 mode control panel he just purchased for $250.00. Yep you guessed it. Same guy, different price. Hmmm, what gives?Referring back to the Roger Wielgus's thread, I recall several "response" posts from a Mr. Robert Prather. Honestly I felt a lot of things Robert stated about pricing was true. I formed the opinion the guy was legit and looking out for both himself as well as the hobbyist. Recently Robert started a "Cockpit Registry" which led folks to believe it was a channel for folks to streamline ideas etc. So as I watched the "Registry" grow I thought what a great idea. Then I see where he announces his new company and I cant help buy say "what a sleazzy way to lure folks in to build a potential client database". Purely slimy!Considering the gentlemen is yet to fully construct his own "working simulator", I cant help but conclude this guys out for one thing and one thing only. Pure profit. So be it if thats what he chooses. But I for one feel he needs to forego this so-called "Registry" thing becuase its so apparent his intentions are not of a hobbyist nature.I'm sure there are many other examples. And its a shame. On a positive note, I applaud Avsim and its members for keeping this forum open to the honest hobbyist who only wishes to fulfill that common quest we all share. - DKoehler-ATL

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You may be mixing up a few UNRELATED events and forming picture that is not accurate.YES...there is business going on in the cockpit building world. It has been there for almost a decade starting back with companies like AGT and Cockpit Simulations who provided parts and panels for pit builders. As the hobby spreads (with the help of cheaper and cheaper internet documentation and sites), there is more business. Just like ANY buying experience - YOU, the buyer, must make the choice on who and what to pay for what! There are still people who barter and give things away...but don't count on it any longer. (if you've been reading for 2 years... you know that!)NO...The registry was NEVER connected to Robert's business intentions. If you followed all the threads...ALKIT started the list of simulator builders, and Robert OFFERED to put together a simple site to track the sim builders instead of a forum thread. FOR FREE, and WITHOUT COMPENSATION. Robert has been in business for at LEAST 4 years...this is not new. He is a very enterprising young man...starting with software design, trading parts, selling his cockpit and services to hollywood, selling car improvements, and now, offering panels. He is not a scam artist...and it is very inappropriate to imply that. He is NOT out for pure profit...but he is not FATHER Robert, looking to give away his possessions for alms! Be realistic...this guy puts a LOT of time and effort into his work and his hobby. He is not getting rich off of the 5 or 10 people who buy his stuff every MONTH! If he makes some money from his hard work...then GREAT. It is the great American (and European, and Australian, and Brazilian...) way!By the way...if you really have been following this site...you will have seen that Robert LOST his entire cockpit in a flood in his home! He also SOLD the major parts of the next version of his cockpit to a movie company to help them make a scene. So don't get all judgemental about the state of his cockpit. He's done a heck of a lot more than most of us here will HOPE to do!So...don't tie your one off experiences with unrelated individuals to a decent guy who does an extraordinary amount of work in this field. To disparage his name in public, amongst his friends and peers...and make it your FIRST post to the group after WATCHING for 2 years...is just, well... LOW!FYI...I'm not affiliated with anyone on this site...or any company. I just work on my 5 year plan cockpit piece by piece and learn from you folks!

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For me the statement made by the gentleman Dkoehler doesn

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As you say you have been follinging this forum for 2 years, you are well aware that if you post a post like this you rock the boat enough to start a flood of posts replying on it :(I feel very bad for you indeed for the story witht he 737 thing. It is indeed very weird seing such price differences on such short period of time..Concerning the remarks on Robert Prather .. I don't know him, I never done any business with him. All I know is that I love this builders registry because of a couple of reasons.1) in the past few months I have seen TONS of websites from builders that I had never seen before ! don't tell me I never looked for them ! ;) I just didn't find most of them before.2) it is free for the user. each person is free to chose if he uses it or not. and it is VERY kind of Robert indeed to provide it to us.Now if he wants to use it as a customers database as you think ... could be .. but I think not. Simply because still there is no sign of any link from the HSB to his site. At least not that I can find. And even if he would put a banner way on top .. what difference does that make ? Hotmail is a free mailserver one can use. Sure it's got spam and banners all over .. but it's your choise (you as customer) if you look at them or not ! Nothing is for free .. you just have "free" stuff. You know that too, I'm sure.Then for prices in the sim-world. Lets just wait and check DakenSky's prices. People say they will blow us away with low prices. I hope they do. But they might as well not because, even though I'm quite sure that many prices out there are very exagerated, nothing is cheap on building a sim. Specialy not if it has electronic components in them or delivered with them. One day I started looking into the price of a LPT-switch based desktop module. If I could make it and sell them. I wanted to get a good price but if I counted all in .. I ended up with a price that's not so very different from some other vendors out there!Either way, next year I hope to study Industrial Product Development and I hope that I'll learn to work with some tools and materials that could be used for cockpitbuilding. And I think I got a dream getting formed here to make my job out of my hobby and one day get something going like DekenSky or FDS or many others.Hey if DekenSky's reading this and has a job for me ... maybe he can convince me to move to US :(

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Roberto, your last 3 or 4 posts in this forum have been pure commercials of the "new" airwerx site.So please stop bullshitting about "you don't get rich by selling panels": why on earth would you ever start a commerce company if you ain't make money?Are you Saint Robert?Or is maybe Robert Prather?Or Peter Cos?Or Enrico Schiratti?Are all those Saints?Giving out their time without makeing any money, just to please the already rich simmers who can spend hundreds of dollars on the least significant bit of their cockpit?Heck i didn't know we had Cockpit Emergency!Where is my national center?Or is it maybe Cockpit Red Cross International?I do respect the work of everybody, don't try to make my words sound any different.They work for their products, and they deserve respect for that: true.But please do not try to make saints out of people commercing: they ain't and they can't be.

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>Hey if DekenSky's reading this and has a job for me ... maybe>he can convince me to move to US :(Wasn't it in belgium or thereabouts?Anyway once you have a computer driven laser engraver, you just feed it with some plexi/lexan/acrylic and an autocad file et voil

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LolRight. No it was not in Belgium .. it only seemed to be for a second :(And I am indeed missing a laser engraver myself as well :DAnd since we're at it .. add in a table-saw, a column-mounted-drill and a dremel !And as a final extra .. a CNC machine.2 bad I got no money left for any of those. :(

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Well you smart mouth dumbass piece of crap! Of course you make money you just don

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>Well you smart mouth dumbass piece of crap! Of course you>make money you just don

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>And since we're at it .. add in a table-saw, aMissing it too, but shouldn't be that much of a problem, i have a black&decker reciprocating saw... will do with it :)>column-mounted-drill i miss that too but>and a dremel !this i have! and i'm gonna look if i can find a column for it>And as a final extra .. a CNC machine.Well... erm... yeah, put in a lathe too :D

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Well in the first place why are you defending so much this guy that started saying all this things about Robert Prather or was it you?? So basically this whole post was none of your bussines! There is no secret here!!! Robert Prather is a great freind of mine that

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>>I'm sure there are many other examples. And its a shame. >Wow.. I have to wonder what side of the fence I fall on... I started a website several years ago (Back in 1997 I believe) that was nothing more than a place where EPIC owners could go and get programming ideas, ask for help, see pictures of how others are putting together their sim, and so on...At one point, I decided to take the site in a new direction, and I started selling some product. For a profit. Not much, but enough.In response, I received emails in much the same tone as this post. Somehow, people thought I had betrayed their trust and tricked them into buying my products simply for profit.Although I had no intention of tricking anyone, I sold a good product, and here's why: I was laid off after 9/11 and had to find some way to make house payments to avoid foreclosure. I was laid off for nearly a year and the website helped keep our heads above water until I could find work. It was extremely tough work. Most of my product had to be hand-assembled, tested, then shipped. In doing so, I didn't figure in my cost of labor. If I had, I surely would've taken a steep loss.Since then I have found employment, and have sold the rights of my products to another company. The transaction was more of a barter, and it has provided me with some nice things for my sim project.My point is... I decided to sell products for profit, however there were very real reasons why.... I would do it again with different products and different ideas if I had to, to help pay the bills.The supply/demand factors fluctuate wildly in this hobby. As vendors take note of this demand, prices will most likely increase until they can be mass-produced, yet I doubt mass-production will ever be a reality, as this is such a narrow vertical market segment.

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>Well in the first place why are you defending so much this>guy that started saying all this things about Robert Prather>or was it you??I'm not defending him, i am chriticizing your defense to your friend.>So basically this whole post was none of your>bussines!It was written in a public forum, and as i member, i have the right to answer whatever post is posted.If that was not the case, then you shouldn't have made your commercials for airwerx in other posts which were clearly "none of your businness">There is no secret here!!! Robert Prather is a great>freind of mine that

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>Now you are evidently try to misleading people in viewing parts sellers as "good ol' sams" trying to take the hell out of anything, even without profiting.Now that's bullshitting.Oh so what we are not good people just cause we sell parts to people that want them... Have you ever asked who has received real parts from us the

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No reason in excusing with you or whatever.You clearly don't want a polite discussion in a public forum.Merry Christmas

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