Hello,As my cockpit building is coming to life now i am in the process of planning the software part of it.You guys ALL use Project magenta products ? I won't, don't want to pay so much, it is absolutely cost prohibitive and non justified price.But, does it exists an alternative to this product ? I looked at FreeFD wich is great but there is no MCP / FMC so no way to play seriously with it on a cockpit setup...Any solution ? Any advice ? What to do ???? I'm lost.Can we drag the PMDG 737 gauges (PDF, ND, EICAS and FMC) on other screens ???? Or another similar aircraft will do it ?What do you use ?!! Can't believe everyone use PM, can't believe everyone can afford that stuff.HELP !

That really depends how accurate you want to be and how much your total project is going to cost, (it will cost twice as much anyway).If you are spending $10,000 building something really nice then what is $600 for PM as a percentage?On the other hand, if you are only planning to spend $1,000 on something very simple, then PM does seem expensive.My Mercedes gets Pirelli but my wife's old Mazda only gets retreads, do you get what I am saying?Back to your original question, I am using FreeFD. There are other options such as Open Glass Cockpit but I have no experience of this software.As for the lack of MCP / FMC in FreeFD you can use a combination of the built in MCP functions of MSFS and the FMC software from P8R Software, http://fmc.scumari.nl . This software is freeware, just need to register, and comes with things like a speaking co-pilot and moving map display. You can export the flight plan to show on FreeFD ND display aswell.Most of the things needed for a good working MCP can be found in MSFS and the LNAV and VNAV buttons are in the P8R FMC.The only drawback I think is that this software only works with FS-9 and not FS2002, (PITY).Hope this helps you.The Porcupineaka Simon Webbwww.desktopflying.co.ukVery slowely putting together a generic twin desktop unit.

Well, what to say ? That's what i was looking for ! A standalone FMC !!!!If the plan is displayed on FreeFD and the FMC has VNAV and LNAV button we got it all...Never heard of that FMC prog before, thank so much for this information.Can it be connected on another computer ?About acurate or not. I agree with you, i'm not planning a +10.000 $ simulator and statsticly i'm sure more than 90% of cockpit builders are not doing so... it is a fact. But that does not mean that you can't reach a very good level of immersion with a let say 2.500 $ DIY sim... So on a 2.500 $ sim you must admit that >600 $ software might be the most important cost on it... this is a real problemI get a feeling about the flight sim multiple PC display market in general, i don't really know if it is the place to debate about it... but i can't resist.What do i see ? We have a very small market i agree for cockpit builders. So we have ONE actor on it, everyone knows it and most of fortunate builders (or not) use it. Oh yeah this product looks stunning, complete, very accurate, etc. whatever you want. But hey guys not everybody has a 10.000 $ budget on their cockpit ! Mine will be almost all DIY, for money saving (and fun) reasons. I can't imagine spending 519

This has been on and off issue about PM price for year. Yes, I understood completely about PM prices and I disagree with it too. . But there is nothing we can do about it and that wouldn't change a thing at all. But, alternatively you could simply purchase registeration on FSUIPC, and write your own software with FSUIPC SDK. This is what I did, I succeed programming MCP instead of purchasing PM MCP for $100.

I have both PM's Airbus suite and RJ glass cockpit. If PM is cost prohibitive, take a look at Reality XP JetLine 4. Just a GC for now but maybe they will add other features in the future. You might want to email them and ask.http://www.reality-xp.com/products/JL4/index.htmWelcome to the club,Richard

In response to Arthur, i would say my post leave PM on the way for harcored simmer, the purpose was not to tell them to change their price ! but it was a kind of request to the other commercial developpers, just to point that we're a few waiting for a cost effective alternative... maybe if one read the forum, it may give ideas.Richard, about Reality XP yes i did check their product, and the price is so good ! this is the defitive way i'd like to see this project. But yes too limited at the time for suiting my 737 setup... Your idea of sending them an email is quite good, and i'd say i'll sure give it a try, thanks !so my plan is, going with FreeFD + the FMC indicated in the first reply...and i'm sure in an upcoming day we'll have great project wich will suit perfectly, thinking of FreeFD if it goes to release or ON 737 project from IOcard team wich also sounds stunning but wich is also a simple annoucement and ight last for years in developpement state...best regards to all

I'm getting quite bored reading all these PM posts here. Sure it's your opinion to say that PM is to expencive and sure you say you don't want them to change their price. But let it be clear from now on; PM is for those who wants "as real as it gets" at all cost.For the others .. forget PM.People come here and scream out for an alternative. Well, get buzzy. Make one. Stop the screams ;o)Ow and .. make it freeware.http://wiki.varxec.net/OpenF50Here's a good start for ya.

Comma, Do you realize how hard it is to write a program that can get GC,MCP,CDU or else to function or interact with FS. Especially with all complicated datas. its time-consuming to get everything to work exactly to what it needs. Not so many of programmer out there would want to spend it. They mostly want to fly. So about 1 out of 100 of our community would make it happen, just wait until someone show up and willing to do all for our community.

That's some lazy attitude you got there Arthur :D lolWhat if that 1 out of 100 is you ? :(

Well you all noticed i'm french, i try to do my best to speak english but it is not my natural langage so it is far from easy. Fact is you misunderstood completely my post and what i wanted to say, certainly because my english is poor, but i'm a little disapointed of the "violence" of your answer.You DID get around the problem by buying PM suite, no problem, but think that some of us are still facing this problem, and you may not shoot at people's face when they just expose idea of a free space market for an upcoming commercial developpement.You might have notice i'm not claming it is easy or not. Nor i am suppose to do it myself, nor i am asking for a free product. Actually i believe you did not read myu post to the end.What i wanted to explain, please try to understand, in a way was "if i was the guy who (for example) has made the wonderfull system MCP+PFD+ND+EICAS+FMC inner the PMDG 737, i would think about spending some hours trying to get these instruments standalone because there MIGHT be a market to sell it and get substantial rewarded form this work". Possibilties are endless after that, imagine just that the company could sell his plane PLUS the external instrument package, specially oriented for cockpit builders...No misunderstood, no "gimme the freeware killer-app or i cry", no "boooouuuuh PM cost too much"... no, no, no. Simply thinking, and sharing ideas. That's all. Sorry to have "bored" you.End of the story.

I, too, am writing my own software for my cockpit. It is still early in its stages, but I will require it for my sim, so you can be guaranteed it will be completed sometime in the course of my sim-building. I do work full-time at Wal*Mart and have a girlfriend that occupy a lot of my free time, but my girlfriend is very loving and doesn't complain about my long hours programming. Without her support, this software and cockpit would not be able to take place.For details, I do not have a functioning website yet, but here is a brief rundown on my 737NG softwre suite, FSLink (keep in mind, I am a programmer, not good at documentation - very detailed to get the point across):FSLink is a suite of multiple programs interfacing along many lines of communication to Flight Simulator. For those who don't have FSUIPC, the only alternative is the now defunct FDSConnection (it wasn't dead when I started writing the code to talk to FS, but I have a somewhat functional version available for download from my website when I get it setup). There will be a choice as to using FSUIPC or FDSConnection, but without FSUIPC, you won't get TCAS data on the ND.The list of programs is getting longer every time I figure out what is missing for the simulator to function. Right now, it stands as such:FSLink ClientFSLink ServerFSLink LinkerFSLink PFDFSLink NDFSLink EADIFSLink FMCFSLink SystemsFSLink Client runs on the FS computer, listening for joystick button presses from your cockpit (meaning any buttons you need to interface with the cockpit have to be programmable as joystick buttons). As it hears the buttons it's programmed to listen for, it sends the programmed Program Name and Keypress to the server through a TCP/IP Winsock connection. Client has the option to auto-start flight simulator and auto-connect to the server for hands-off operation (i.e. turn on the computer, and with the shortcut to the Client in your startup folder, the simulator side will start all by itself).FSLink Server is the other half of the equation. It runs on a standalone computer that hosts out the flight data displays and FMCs. When it is started, it can autostart all the programs required to get your cockpit functional (i.e. allowing you to just turn on the computer, and with the shortcut to Server in your startup folder, the sim will start all by itself). As the server launches the programs in it's list, it renames each window to a nickname the user assigns it (i.e. for the Captain's PFD, it could be named "CptPFD" instead of "FSLink PFD") to allow for multiple programs running, but total control over which application receives what keystroke commands.When the Server and Client connect, the Server sends the Client a currently running list. The client then compares that list to a last-known running list. If any names or application types are different, it will ask you to discard all information of joystick programming or keep the existing setup (in all likelihood that some joystick button presses will now be targeted at a program that no longer exists on the server).FSLink Linker is the application that makes the memory spaces for each variable from flight simulator for the programs. Linker retrieves the variables from flight sim via FDSConnection or FSUIPC or their networking clients, converts them to a usable format and then makes them available to any program running via a named memory space. Through this process, the programs can share information, so long as no two memory spaces are named the same. Of the suite, this must be the most resource friendly program of them. Very quick and very little overhead incurred in its operation.FSLink PFD was the first of the programs to be written. It is as complete as I can make it without further knowlege of what is actually built into the real gauge. I will develop it more if information becomes available as to how it is necessary to change.FSLink ND is the third of the programs. It is the second most complicated of the gauges as it requires several modes to be programmed with many pieces in each mode. The MAP mode is complete, but APP/ILS, PLAN and VOR modes are barely even in existence. This will change after I get my current funds and time in order. By placing a squawkbox formatted flight plan into the ND folder and hitting a key or setting a memory named space to 1 instead of 0, the ND will load the flight plan file and display it.FSLink EICAS is nearly done, 99% if I had to put a number. It functions as an EICAS does, with selectable Upper/Lower/Blank modes (blank for the lower EICAS when the upper is in Mixed mode). The EGT needles and N1 needles move based on numbers retrieved from the named memory spaces the FMC will talk to after computing the proper numbers.FSLink FMC is THE MOST pain in the butt program in the suite. It is very involved (as an FMC is) and am having to use sources that explain little about how to use an FMC. I can mimick the pages, but as for computing the variables, I have no manual telling me how this is done, so it is accomplished at current by pure guess work. It is capable of programming a route (through the RTE page - LEGS page is work-in-progress current step) and storing it in a file to be used later. If the ND is active, saving the route will load it into the ND. The PERF INIT page is also "done" but is not actually computing values, but rather using default values until I can figure out how to compute the values myself.FSLink Sytems is the baby in the suite. It wasn't until recently that I was thinking about the overhead and how to simulate all the various systems found on it. So, I decided to make a program that could simulate every switch, knob and background system found in the plane. After reading much about the various sytems on http://www.b737.org.uk I was able to gather all the switches on an overhead schematic I found at http://www.sim-engineers.com a while ago into each powered electric bus and what switches control those busses. You cannot turn on the Galley lights until you have switched on the Switched Battery Bus or cannot get any lights on the panels to light up unless you have juice in the battery and the Switched Battery Bus is on. I have to take each panel switch by switch and replicate them. I also am looking to have each switch position accept an EPIC event (so it can interface directly with EPIC switches instead of having keyboard or joystick toggles - this can be an option in the future once I get the program built). This program is to run on the FS computer (which is where the cockpit would be placed) and talks directly to the hardware and flight sim.There it is. My entire project exposed. It is a lot like PM in the fact that it will replicate every system, gauge and allow the user to make a Level 6 simulator (or at least feel like they did). That is my goal, and unless I achive it, I will be dissatisfied.I made the gauges using bitmap files and loading them for a reason: if the user wants to change the look of something, they can. Don't like that pitch ladder or the EICAS doesn't look right, change it. Changes are limited, but there are options built in everywhere. You can position things directly through the INI files for the programs. You can alter the bitmaps any way you like, as long as any holes in the bitmaps are 0,0,0 in color (also changeable via the INI files). In short, I have made every attemt to allow anyone who needs to to use this system for their cockpit and to make an option to PM.As it is not professionally being programmed and I may have made many a mistake, the program will be free for anyone to use. I will not charge anything for its use. I also will only include things I require to get my sim working. If you need something special added in and I feel that it would be simple enough of an idea and I may also benefit from the addition, I very well may add it in. I'm just looking to get the software done, then get on to the building. If anyone else benefits from my work, hey, great. Kudos to me.

Forgot to post the link to the CVS repository I'm developing in:http://sourceforge.net/projects/fslink/That will get you to the main CVS page. From there, scroll to the bottom and click the "Browse Repository" link. Below is a list of the programs, their development tool and their repository folder name:FSLink Client - VB6 - ClientDevFSLink Server - VB6 - ServerDevFSLink Linker - C++ - LinkerFSLink PFD - C++ - PFDFSLink ND - C++ - NDFSLink EICAS - C++ - EICASFSLink FMC - C++ - FMCFSLink Systems - VB6 - SystemsIf you know how to use CVS, you can download the whole project files and complie them on your hard drive to see how things are going. I am not accepting any offers for people to join my team as, for me, working with others is hard to do in programming such large and complex programs.

Philippe, :-lol I would love to be 1 of those 100 people. I don't mind at all... but who can teach me how to write data in program (for ND or CDU)Arthur

>Comma,>> Do you realize how hard it is to write a program that can>get GC,MCP,CDU or else to function or interact with FS.>Especially with all complicated datas. its time-consuming to>get everything to work exactly to what it needs. Not so many>of programmer out there would want to spend it. They mostly>want to fly. So about 1 out of 100 of our community would make>it happen, just wait until someone show up and willing to do>all for our community.>>> I'm an engineer, I design, develop, and deploy software for an aerospace company for a living. I could build the software you all want without a doubt, and probably better than the PM system you all rave about. However, like another poster said, who wants to take the time to make the effort in their spare time? I develop large software applications every day, the last thing i want to do is come home and stare at a compiler for fun. I think it's truely going to take a committed and passionate individual to duplicate the PM setup (especially at this stage in the game), because it's going to be hard to find a pro that wants to spend their time doing their job in their spare time. I'm sure you all know what I mean. :)

>I'm an engineer, I design, develop, and deploy software for an>aerospace company for a living. I could build the software>you all want without a doubt, and probably better than the PM>system you all rave about. However, like another poster said,>who wants to take the time to make the effort in their spare>time? I develop large software applications every day, the>last thing i want to do is come home and stare at a compiler>for fun. I think it's truely going to take a committed and>passionate individual to duplicate the PM setup (especially at>this stage in the game), because it's going to be hard to find>a pro that wants to spend their time doing their job in their>spare time. I'm sure you all know what I mean. :)Yep. Plus, it doesnt stop to the development part. You also need to support it. That's probably even bigger effort really.//Tuomas