I too am a convertee from the FF sticks. I had the concern over the lack of trim forces with the yoke. But there is sufficient pull/push required if you are out of trim to give you the right level of indication.However, if you really need an FF joystick, why pay $99 for Microsoft? For a marginal reduction in force feedback strength, you can get the Thrustmaster Fox 2 Shock for $29. I use it away from home on my laptop, and does the trick (IMHO).

With my Logitech FF stick, I can go into the control panel/Joystick setup and adjust the center spring from 0 - 100%. Are you sure you can't do the same with MS sticks?If I had to choose between a high-quality stick or a FF stick, I would definitely go with high-quality. FF is somewhat "neat", but nothing to write home about..- Kenny B

The MS FFB stick doesn't have a spring. It's made completely different from the typical run of the mill joystick. It's pure quality throughout. My MS#1 is over five years old and still going strong and I've beat the tar out of it with combat sims. It'll outlast me. Same with the #2.

>The MS FFB stick doesn't have a spring. It's made >completely different from the typical run of the mill >joystick. It's pure quality throughout. My MS#1 is over five >years old and still going strong and I've beat the tar out >of it with combat sims. It'll outlast me. Same with the >#2. If I had to guess I would say Kenny is referring to an "electronic spring" since the adjustment is made through the control panel. What do you like about the MSFF2 over the FF1?

>With my Logitech FF stick, I can go into the control >panel/Joystick setup and adjust the center spring from 0 - >100%. Are you sure you can't do the same with MS sticks? Kenny,Your saying then that you get both centering forces and FF forces with the Logitech in FS2002?

Yes, but the more you increase the centering force, the more you loose the subtle FF forces.I keep it way down for airplanes and way up for helicopters. - Kenny B

> And I also like the fact that there's no centering forces. >>:-lol >That's the one thing I don't like about my FF1. I prefer the >joystick to center rather than flop over. Real AC controls don't generally center either. They go to the 'Free Stick' location.Ron

Planes such as the 777 do have yoke shake prior to a stall. It is built into the plane's system computer.Robbie