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Guest H_Kev55

PAI Auto Installers - ATC Virtual Cheese?

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I'm sure this title will earn me several floggings, but what the heck.Ever since installing a handful of Project AI Auto Installers (AFTER installing the BASE, of course...) I have observed some very very bizarre (not to mention outright cheesy) ATC/AI behavior.My first thought was that maybe the ATC/AI engine in MSFS is messed, but after closer inspection, it would seem alot more is messed than a few bad controllers having a bad hair day. I concede my own ignorance in FS AI is probably as much to blame as any of this, but there's some awfully funny stuff going on. I was under the impression I could simply install these "automated kits" and I would instantly have realistic AI. Maybe I need to rethink the meaning of "automated" :) Anyhow, I am hoping some of you AI gurus can humor this AI-challenged soul a bit and chime in on some of these questions (or perhaps point me at a FAQ).1. Why is it that almost all of these new aircraft are completely out of control? At least half these PAI planes wobble and bobble all over the sky (maneuvers that would tear any aircraft to shreds). Cruising at 35000 with gear extended? And if you thought it sucked to be on an America West flight deck these days, you should see the blood alcohol content of some of these pilots. I was watching a Delta 767 pulling 60 degrees nose high in Chase View while attempting to land! Needless to say, nobody walked from that landing. What's the deal here? Why do these new AI planes freak out like this?2. While it is understandable that the poly count on these aircraft models must be kept to a minimum - the workmanship on some of these "finished" products are *really* bad. Bad joints, horrible texture alignment, misaligned/floating aircraft lights - to name a few. I haven't seen anything quite so bad since I installed the CSV aircraft set for SquawkBox on FS98. This isn't universally true - there do appear to be some good models out there. Is there some great repository out there for aircraft which look good and fly well too? Aside from performance considerations, is there any reason why any GMAX model (like a POSKY plane) couldn't be used for AI?3. OK...I have this other issue with aircraft being partially or wholly "buried" in the tarmac, taxiways, and runways. I don't even know what to make of it. The screenshot at the end of this post pretty much says it all. As you can see the ramp is completely empty but if I turn on Aircraft Labels...there's at least 40 aircraft "under the pavement". You can see them from Chase View...the camera zooms right up to the tarmac and stops. If you zoom in 2 or 3 times "through" the pavement, you'll see all these PAI aircraft just hanging in suspended animation "spinning" around in the concrete - bizzare. Is this some twisted mass burial site for all those dilapidated aircraft that burned it in while trying to land w/ a -40 degree nose down pitch? Would love an explanation for this! BTW, I see these "underground" aircraft all over the airport - not just outside the gates. What's especially peculiar: if you watch them long enough, the subterranean aircraft will actually start to move around!4. I am finding that I have duplicate (sometimes triplicate) aircraft flying the exact same leg of the same flight plan at exactly the same time. In fact, their tail numbers and flight numbers are the same. This results in small "clusters" of aircraft - all the same type, flight number, and tail number - all coming in to land at the same time. Is any checking done to ensure that plans included in the PAI autoinstallers are unique - won't the traffic tools compiler check for this? Is the problem caused by something else?5. The AI engine seems to give preferential treatment to the "generic" FS2002 AI craft and their flight plans. When I first load FS, almost all the traffic around me is Microsoft's fabricated AI. It takes quite some time for PAI craft to show up (even at 100% ATC density). Eventually this does happen. If I allow the sim to run long enough the AI content gets shuffled around a bit. Will a tool like AFCAD allow me to control this behavior?6. When I run AI Traffic 1.0 (is there a newer release of this?), it says there are 3 aircraft types which were not found in FS2002 but are referenced in the flight plan. For instance:i.e. "PAI B732 DALX POWERPUFF"Should I suspect a bunk install, or a lack of quality control here? Do I need to pull these models from somewhere else? If so, where?Anyway...I'm not sure where to go from here. I am enticed by the idea of Project AI, but the auto installers leave me wanting. There is just too much wierdness abound for my liking. Am I dealing with a bunk installation or is there more to this than meets the eye? I'm wondering if the best answer is to start with a fresh traffic.bgl and manually add aircraft and plans and then go cherry pick my favorite AI models and textures? This sounds like a tremendous amount of work though - which is why I was hopeful the auto installer route would give me satisfactory results. This seems like it could be great fun, but there is much to be desired here. Less was definitely more in my case. So maybe "roll your own AI" is the only real answer to this problem??Help.;-)J

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Well for starters downloading and installing this file will help with the buried planes and erratic behavior.http://www.pai.simairport.com/Unofficial%2...s/paiFDE_v2.zipSecond, if you have a problem with the way a plane looks, I suggest you email the author/repainter of the aircraft and voice your compliant with them. You need to keep in mind that these aircraft are not meant to be looked at for a long period of time, nor are they meant for you to fly them. They are merely eye candy, that you can use so that your airport isn't a ghost town. I have several hundred of these planes installed. Of course I did it all by hand, not using the auto installer, but in either case, PAI planes are quite suitable for AI traffic when your in the air flying or on the ground taxiing. Think of them as a movie prop....they do the job of an extra, a stand-in, not a main character actor.[div align=center][link:members.cox.net/fstimes/wetimage.html]Click Here For Weather Image of the Day!

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Thanks for the quick response. It's a good thing you answered because I never would have suspected an FDE issue for "buried aircraft" ;-).Let me ask you - since you are indeed someone with much experience here: are you "cherry picking" your flight models for your AI? If so, do you have any suggestions for what *kind* of aircraft models should be used? Which models work well? Do you have any tools and web resources you recommend for doing this?Cheers,J

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To be honest with you I have all of the PAI flight models installed. I don't have all of the repaints, but most....my current aircraft list is up to #660.Once you have the ver 2 .air and edits to your .cfg file, they work as they are supposed to....most of the newer models, the sabbs, the dashes, etc., are working fine...I think that "they" work the bugs out of them before they let them loose.Since upgrading the first run aircraft with the ver. 2 stuff, I have had no trouble with the aircraft not flying and landing as they should. Sometimes they are a bit fast, but if you search through the PAI forums you can find a trick to slow them down a bit...editing something in their .cfg file.

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Now THAT's more like it...the Delta repaints, I have found, are some of the better looking PAI. Some of the Southwest ones are pretty poor.Thanks for your help on this.BTW, someone was saying over at the PAI forums that the base installer is supposed to remove all your old "Soar, Landmark, et al" traffic. Is this true? My airspace continues to be permeated with Microsoft traffic.J

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...and that was only 50% ;-)BTW...what's the scoop with the IFR ONLY switch in the ATC settings. I set it, but FS never writes it out to the FS2002.CFG file. Anyone know what the proper CFG entry is for this?J

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Jason,You already have a good suggestion to use the version 2 FDE for PAI aircraft.The problem with having multiple tails is that you've most likely run the installer more than once. Grab a copy of AI Traffic Mover by Thomas Mollitor and it will tell you exactly what the problem is.I went through a pretty rough time installing the PAI packages a few months ago. What I ultimately decided to do is uninstall all the packages and reinstall them by hand in the order recommended by PAI. The problem arises from having the V2 FDE files reference the aircraft correctly. It takes some time to manually edit all the config files so it was better for me to do manual installation.Ask if you need further help.That is:Base PackageAir FranceOlympic AirwaysThen all the other packages you want.

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>6. When I run AI Traffic 1.0 (is there a newer release of >this?), it says there are 3 aircraft types which were not >found in FS2002 but are referenced in the flight plan. For >instance: >>i.e. "PAI B732 DALX POWERPUFF" >>Should I suspect a bunk install, or a lack of quality >control here? Do I need to pull these models from somewhere >else? If so, where? I remember seeing in one of the readme's that there were provisions for aircraft that haven't been made yet. The Powerpuff was mentioned specifically. Try searching the unofficial PAI files for a Powerpuff repaint, or you could use the Yeodesigns one.

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Hello all,While ProjectAI is meant to be, as Josh so aptly stated, simply stand ins, we at PAI are hard at work upgrading our files.While sometimes it appears that quality control is lacking in some areas, we are hard at work trying to improve every aspect of PAI. Why are we doing this? It's simple. We want to provide you with the best files that we can.With over 60 people working on different aspects of this project, the senior staff is hard at work trying to make sure you get the best we can provide.We will soon be releasing a new install program which will make it much easier to install the files.With John Rogers back from some time off, you will be seeing alot more aircraft models released. Check out the PAI page for his new Fokker F100.We have 'hired' new texture artists to provide us with high quality, yet frame rate friendly liveries.We are currently working on a process that will make our aircraft models even more frame rate friendly than they are now.While some things, example, misaligned textures, can be disheartening to some users, we feel that at the time of release, they were the best textures available as FREEWARE. You must remember, all of our members are volunteers. No one at PAI gets paid to do what they do.But, I can assure you, that with ProjectAI growing so rapidly, almost all of the original authors are hard at work upgrading their previous files.Suffice to say, ProjectAI will only be getting better in the near future.I must also say, that we learn alot from posts such as this. I comb all the flightsim forums everyday for topics such as this. We welcome contructive criticism because we believe it only makes us better.After all, we rely on you, and we owe you, the simming public, for making ProjectAI what it is today.Thanks,KJ

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Hi,I just downloaded and installed the necessary files for project ai yesterday.Have installed base,Olympic,Air France and several others.Do I also need paifdev2.zip and what is it?or is it not necessary with the latest version?Thanks,Ron

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AI Traffic Mover is a MUST have. That solved ALOT of my problems. Thanks! Indeed I had some 430 Delta plans that were duplicated. Looks like I can rid myself of all the default MS cheese with this tool too (the base installer did not remove these).Cheers,J

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Good to hear you're on the way to solving the problem.However, the base install should overwrite the default AI. If I didn't I certainly suggest that a reinstall is in order.

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Although I know some people have had problems with PAI stuff I spent some time roaming their forum before downloading and that way I have had zero problems. Zip. I've installed maybe five of their auto installers on top of the base, Air France and Olympic ones. No probs. I used AI Traffic Mover to shuffle stuff around once I started using AFCAD files.It's great stuff! Although I usually only fly out of KLAX I decided to fly from Calais to Heathrow and there were Air France and BA planes all over the place. It was just so damn cool!Thank you PAI!

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Did you install paifdev2.zip?I just downloaded their base and other files yesterday and wondered if I need this also.I haven't used it enough yet to notice any problems but a post above says this file is necessary.I just wondered if the version I installed yesterday needed this file.Thanks,Ron

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What a great post. I was expecting to find a flame here (seems all too much the norm), but pleased to find this welcome response to my concerns.I have been able to address most of the issues at this point w/ the few exceptions of personal dislike for some of the models and liveries. I am still learning the ropes of adding traffic manually so that I can change out specific PAI models in favor of others. Your suggestion of using Yeo Designs for the Powerpuff livery is a good place to start. I think I'll try that.Just a couple of suggestions:1. It would be *well* worth the time investment to update the auto-installers with the v2 FDE's. Many of the v1 FDE's are really unacceptable (drunken aircraft aside...buried aircraft is not good!) and IMO should be taken out of the installer(s). Perhaps an automated patch would be another way to accomplish this? The v2 aircraft.cfg files were in need of "custom tweaking" because they did not account for the new Southwest liveries nor did they have reflect the individual paint schemes for Delta (nc, mc, oc). Anyway...I found this process very repetitive and tedious and got to thinking this is something that could (and should) be automated. This FDE update seems like one of those absolutely mandatory MUST HAVE's - but I had to come to a forum to get that link. Until such a time that the v2 FDE's are part of the installer, a link to this download seems imperative.2. AITM seems like an essential tool for anyone attempting this - if nothing more than its analysis capability. It would be cool if you could team up with these people and distribute AITM as part of the PAI distribution.3. The uninstallers don't appear to be doing their job and is likely the source of some of the problems I describe. As I was hand tweaking v2 aircraft.cfg files, I found that I had duplicate entires in addition to having duplicate flight plan entries. These had been left behind after I installed the Delta autoinstaller BEFORE the base installer. I ended up uninstalling the Delta pack, installing the base, and then installing the Delta pack a second time - this raised issues.4. The link to the base installer needs to be MUCH MORE visible on your website. There are several posts on AVSIM here from people who made the same mistake as I did - installed an autoinstaller w/o the base package. Alot of people are asking, "huh? what base package?" Even after I was aware of its existence, it took me some time to pick the link out because the other links are so much more prominent w/ their giant airline banners.5. I have 500 flight plans that AITM says contain timetable errors of one form or another. I would say 80% of those are USAirways and United. What are the ramifications of this? Will these flights even fly? Seems like with a tool like AITM, this should be part of a minimum baseline testing practice before publishing auto-installers to the web.Anyway...thanks for your time and ears, certainly your Herculean efforts go with great thanks. I wouldn't take the time to write all this if I didn't think the cause was worthy. This whole project is pretty da*n cool.Cheers,J

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If you haven't installed it...I would definitely tell you YES. There's a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between the v1 and v2 FDE's.

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I don't know what paifdev1 or v2 does.If v1 is in the base installer I have it.When I install paifdev2 do I have to reinstall the base and all the airlines I have already installed?I installed base first then auto installed Air France,Olympic then several others in that order.Thanks,Ron

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>However, the base install should overwrite the default AI. >If I didn't I certainly suggest that a reinstall is in >order. *lol* no way! It took me the better part of 2 evenings to get my AI up and running correctly. I think I'll go the AITM route and just remove these aircraft manually and recompile.

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Except for some of the more recent models, the base installer presently installs v1 FDE's. You don't need to reinstall anything, but you will likely have to do a little work depending on the liveries you have installed. paifdev2 was published before some of the newer auto-installers were made available, so you end up having to tweak the {fltsim.x} sections for those liveries.The way I did this was renamed all my v1 aircraft.cfg files to something else (i.e. aircraft_a320v1.cfg). I extracted the new v2 .AIR file and the new .CFG file from paifdev2.zip. In this example, I renamed aircraft_a320v2.cfg to aircraft.cfg. I then opened this file to see which liveries (if any) were missing. In my case...I discovered that my Delta and Southwest liveries were either missing or wrong in the v2 CFG files. I opened up the old v1 CFG files, extracted out the relevant {fltsim.x} sections for those liveries and pasted them into the new aircraft.cfg. Make sure you keep the {fltsim.x} ordering sequential. Update the line "sim=" for these v1 entries you carried over so that they point at the new v2 .AIR file and then save the CFG file.You have to do this for every PAI craft. I'm not aware of any other way to do this presently. I ran AITM's Aircraft Analyzer at the end of all this as a sanity check to make sure I did it right.It's tedious, but very necessary. The v1 FDE's are no good.J

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LOL...ok....I understand because I had to do a complete reinstall of FS2002 two months ago and it took me an entire week to get it all up and running properly.The reason I suggest a manual reinstall is that I don't trust some of the AITM functions....especially the Shuffle command.

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FDE 2 is an upgrade for the flight dynamics...this affects the AIR and CONFIG files for each flight model.I strongly suggest you install it since it solves many problems with the behavior of AI aircraft...unfortunately, you will then have to edit all your .CFG files by hand to point to the correct air files.

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Thanks for the info.I read the readme and it looks pretty basic.I just replace the aircraft.cfg files with the new ones and rename them aircraft.cfg and add the air files to each PAI aircraft.Right?This only pertains to the PAI aircraft right?Also,I don't see a folder for PAI GA aircraft which I included in the base install.Where are they and do I need to upgrade them with fdev2?Thanks,Ron

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See my above remarks in Post 18 about missing textures/liveries in the v2 aircraft.cfg file.

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OK,bear with me a little longer here please,I think I am finally understanding.Can I not just copy all my PAI AC folders to a temp,then delete the aircraft.cfg and replace it with the v2 one in the original folder, add the v2*.air file and save for each ac. I really don't need to rename the v1 aircraft.cfg and leave it in the v2 folder if I have backups in the temp folder,right?Then I go to the v1 folders in the temp folder and compare to see if I am missing any liveries?If so copy and paste to v2?Also,when you say update the line"sim=" what do I actually change here?I don't have fs on this computer so I can't refer to it.Thanks for all the help.Ron

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You can NOT use the v2 aircraft.cfg files wholesale except in a few cases. It all depends on the airlines you have installed on your system. The v2 aircraft.cfg files are dated August 2002. There have been releases and changes to the auto installers since that time - none of which are reflected in the v2 CFG file. As such, you will need to hang on to your v1 CFG files long enough to extract any {fltsim.x} sections that might be missing in the v2 files. You will have to copy these over by hand and update the "sim=" line.The reason for this last step is that you are copying v1 information into a v2 CFG file. It is essential that every entry in the v2 CFG file points to the v2 .AIR file, and not the v1 .AIR file.For example, consider 'PAI B762":The v1 airfile is pai762.air. The v2 airfile is pai762v2.air. On my system, I have 4 liveries of the 762. They are:dal_mcdal_ncUALUSANow, if you open the v2 AIRCRAFT.CFG file, you will find that there are entries for UAL and USA, but NO entries for dal_mc and dal_nc. That's because the mc and nc liveries were created AFTER v2 was released. You need to open up your v1 AIRCRAFT.CFG file and COPY these two sections over (not the whole file...JUST the aircraft descriptor sections labeled {fltsim.x} that correspond to dal_mc and dal_nc. In my case these happened to be {fltsim.0} and {fltsim.1} respectively.So now I've pasted these 2 sections to the end of my v2 CFG file. The last aircraft entry in the v2 CFG file was {fltsim.3} "PAI B767 VRG". The first thing I do is update the numbering of the two sections I just pasted in so that they are consecutive. For instance:{fltsim.0} ---> {fltsim.4}{fltsim.1} ---> {fltsim.5}Second, I need to update the sim= lines for these two sections because they will still be referencing the old FDE - namely pai762.air. You must change this manually to point to pai762v2.air.{fltsim.4}title=PAI B762 DAL MCsim=pai762 <--- change me to pai762v2{fltsim.5}title=PAI B762 DAL NCsim=pai762 <--- change me to pai762v2That's it. Pour yourself some coffee and repeat for each of your aircraft ;-) Not all of them will require you to manually port aircraft across from one version to the other. It all depends on the liveries you have installed.Once you are satisfied you have ported everything correctly, you can blow the old v1 stuff away - but I would be loathe to do so, unless I knew I had everything moved over correctly. You can later use AI Traffic Mover and run Analyze to make sure you're not missing any aircraft.It may be that you don't have any liveries which need porting. They may already be present in the v2 CFG file - in which case, you simply rename the v2 file to aircraft.cfg and you're done.Make sense? That's about the best that I can explain it. Maybe someone else can do better ;-)J

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