Attitudes towards payware developers - what do you thin

[Guest eko]

In regards to this statement:"This is not their day job! I would venture to guess that the creators of these addons do not do this for a living. I would imagine that it is a group of people that have the same passion for flight simming as we do."Release as freeware. It's not just a hobby (as a developer/creator) anymore when you start to charge. You cross a line at that point. You are no longer "sharing" with the community. I don't care what anybody says, how much somebody tries to convince me of ALL the work that developers do for us. It's not an altruistic enterprise they are engaged in! When you charge for something, you are no longer sharing, you are selling. And I do not owe you one bit of "free" gratitude as a flight sim community member for your efforts.If I buy a product and I really like it, I am grateful that the money I spent went towards a good product (and I will reward the developer with a note or e-mail of approval stating my pleasure in having done business with them, and my inclination to do business with them again in the future).Now, a developer can still be completely addicted to HIS hobby, and using the sim may be his hobby, and even deciding to do a project may start out as a hobby, but all of that is lost once they attach a price to it... from the content creation point of view, of course.

[Guest]

>"This is not their day job! I would venture to guess that >the creators of these addons do not do this for a living. Some do, we don't.>I would imagine that it is a group of people that have >the same passion for flight simming as we do." We sure do. But abuse (as opposed to constructive feedback) diminishes the pleasure for us and makes long-term developing less likely. All developers are human, and even commercial developers are entitled to a bit of respect ... nobody is perfect.>Release as freeware. I used to as I'm sure you know. Still do sometimes. Most developers did at one time : everyone in FSD, PSS, DF, RAS and elsewhere has done so and we STILL do so : or we help others who are learning with no expectations. But unfortunately, commercial developers (more than one) kept ripping my work off and selling it because what I do is real easy to rip off. Even today one of my Freeware files is being advocated for use to prop up a dysfunctional commercial product by a well known European publisher. How should I feel about that ... amused ? >It's not just a hobby (as a >developer/creator) anymore when you start to charge. You >cross a line at that point. You are no longer "sharing" >with the community. No argument, Eko, that's exactly right.>I don't care what anybody says, how much somebody tries to >convince me of ALL the work that developers do for us. It's >not an altruistic enterprise they are engaged in! When you >charge for something, you are no longer sharing, you are >selling. And I do not owe you one bit of "free" gratitude >as a flight sim community member for your efforts. Also true. Well, sort of. But in order to balance that view, almost 100% of present commercial developers gave away their works for many many years before they became commercial developers. Look for some names in file libraries of some who have posted here in this thread :Graham Waterfield / Phoenix1 : about 100 (plus earlier works that are part of FSD archives; FSD as a group : 150+Mikko Maliniemi : 200+Roger Dial : 60+Myself : about 200 ...So we have paid dues, mate.>If I buy a product and I really like it, I am grateful that >the money I spent went towards a good product (and I will >reward the developer with a note or e-mail of approval >stating my pleasure in having done business with them, and >my inclination to do business with them again in the >future). There ... that is the perfect outcome. But do you know how many folks actually take the time to do that ? Not even 0.5%. We got a about a thousand thank-you letters about the Porter, but as total worldwide downloads were about 180,000 at last count that's still about the 0.5%. But boy ! ... does a letter of appreciation ever make your day.>Now, a developer can still be completely addicted to HIS >hobby, and using the sim may be his hobby, and even deciding >to do a project may start out as a hobby, but all of that is >lost once they attach a price to it... from the content >creation point of view, of course. For me the bottom line if fun. Developers are to a certain extent addicts but we are human too. But to the very few folks who (as GW points out) subject reasonable people like most developers are to rude, or unreasonable abuse and threats ... I would say toi them that their oft unreasonable bleatings can have both an adverse and cumulative effect on normally reasonable blokes. I look at CS and the 727. Yoiiks !~! There are too many issues to address there, and you know we suffer from Piracy too but we won't ever go down that path. Once we telegraphed a release date we slipped and the abuse we got was unvelievable. Fortunately for most developers, it is about 0.5% of users who adopt unfortunate positions and after years of that approach sometimes they get as good as they give. Can only turn the other cheek for so long.FS Developing as I see it is like a Darwinian theory of evolution. Crawl, Walk, Freeware, Commercial (briefly) and then you quit to become extinct in FS terms, regain your life ... and play more golf or go fishing.Thanks for a balanced and objective post, Eko. Like Jeroen's and many others, I always enjoy reading them because you can see the forest through the trees.Best,

[Guest eko]

I'm going to add a couple of more comments in light of your post Steve, not because I'm disagreeing with anything you said, but because it's usually difficult to convey all the exact meanings I am trying to imply with simply the written word. (This banter, IMHO, is always much easier over a nice pint and talking face to face.) :-)I think that of all the planes that I fly with the sim, 90% of the one's I enjoy the most have a SS airfile attached to them. :-) I also have many of the free files from all those other fine gentlemen you mentioned as having paid their dues. And my gratitude for having that quality freeware in my arsenal because of yours and their efforts, is now, and will always be, without measure. As you probably already know from all my ramblings on the subject, I am a steadfast advocate of freeware, and I value it, and acknowledge it with the utmost respect and gratitude.Now when I stated that I do not owe one bit of gratitude to a payware developer... that is not a retroactive sentiment. It only applies to the efforts done with the goal of producing a commercial product, for which I feel the rules are much different than freeware offerings. Just because a developer decides to begin producing payware, does not mean that I no longer feel they deserve my gratitude for all the fine freeware they have given me. That will always remain.I may not particularly like that I won't get as many freeware offerings from that individual... but that is a completely seperate issue, which we are not addressing here. And it certainly doesn't diminish my appreciation for what they have already produced in the past, or any freeware offerings which they may produce in the future.And I wholeheartedly agree with you that non-constructive criticism (either to a freeware OR payware developer) will always have a negative result in the end. There is no need for it. Intelligent, respectful people can get their point across just as strongly without having to use four letter words and scream and shout. :-)Thanks for the kind words Steve, and right back at you with that sentiment!

[Guest Jalok]

Hi CaptainSim, why don't you quote a single sample of what has made your hell for this week?? The message below, written by you, synthetizes the two "great" qualities for a person who is in charge of customer assistance: arrogance and disrespect.http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...ewmode=threaded

[Guest Jalok]

That PrivateSim plays so dirty that he's deleting all messages/threads that we're making reference for, some of them written by himself!! If he doesn't know how to sustain a surreal and illegal statement like that "refund-sell-nothing-to-you" thing, he should had never done it. And if he finally feels that he was so ridiculous placing those statements, he should proceed with a public retractation, not this coward action of deleting his own words as if they were never written.Shame on you, PrivateSim. I initialy thought 19th Nov was just an accident, or at most a forgiveable failure. But now I'm sure that it was a real consequence of your arrogance, disrespect to customer and a purely perfidious act, cheatting people to get their money in advance and offering them a very incomplete "alpha" release to avoid mass-refunds.>I agree! >>The whole issue with the Cap'Sim group is their arrogance, >lack >of repect, and humiliating customers. >>http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...ewmode=threaded