Jeezus people, it's Friday. Time for a beer :-beerchugSome of you won't buy the 727, some will, good on all of you.To the developers out there, stop giving release dates, when the product is ready for public consumption, let er rip. To the high strung simmers out there, there is more to life than a release date, which some seem to live by.

Very good advice!!Dave

The customer may always be right, but that does not take away from the fact that many customers (and it is getting worse by the day) behave like maniacs and demand things that are not only outside the scope of the product as defined by the manual/brochure/etc. but clearly impossible to implement.When that is then pointed out to them they blame not their incorrect expectations or their ignorance of the technology they're using but the company providing that technology.One example of this is people complaining they get such poor framerates on their P2-400s with 128MB RAM and a TNT2 card when they have every slider maxed out (maybe exagerating a bit, but it happened) and blaming Microsoft for releasing a bad product.Those are clearly incorrect expectations.Then there are people flaming PSS for not updating (for free of course) their excellent A320 panel for use with the POSKY A330. That's clearly outside the scope of the package as defined in the product specs. I trust that PSS would satisfy customer wishes in this if it were possible without a major investment (as that would only make perfectly good sense from a marketting and PR point of view), but apparently it is not that simple and we have to live with that.When valid customer support requests are ignored or played down that is a bad thing, but what we are seeing these days is ever more that customers overload the support people from their suppliers with support demands (no longer requests, people scream instead of asking nicely more often than not) which leads to valid requests not coming through because the support people are spending all of their time answering the calls from a few individuals who keep bombarding them with abuse.Such are the reasons for companies moving away from customer support on an individual level (like Flight1 and Dreamfleet have done, there is no longer any way you can contact them directly unless you have an email address from one of their people somewhere. They've all been removed from the websites and packages) and towards automated systems (FAQ databases, etc.) and online forums only.As usual the vast majority of people who have their normal questions and problems suffer from a small minority.

Seems like Mr Thunderstruck wanted to voice his opinions in a manner that is not particularly fitting for the forums... This is yet another subject where there are an awful lot of varing trains of thought... Lets keep our cool and be constructive with opinions.Thankshttp://www.avsim.com/vfr_center/avsim_sig.jpg

Applause.I fully agree that customers (be they companies or individuals) are ever more forgetting that there are real people on the other end of that telephone line (or message board, email, facmachine, whatever).Somehow, as soon as they can't see the other person that person becomes some sort of machine churning out things for your pleasure and completely immune from human feelings and failures.Now, some people working for companies are the same. They're human too you know so they suffer from the same shortcomings that their customers do.In this market, that situation is compounded by the fact that many of the companies in it are very very small (2-3 maybe, 10 people is a large group) and often inexperienced (how many of the companies we're talking about here didn't exist a year ago, their members being either freeware creators or consumers meddling in their backrooms?).They have no trained public relations staff, no dedicated customer support staff. The people answering your call about a perceived problem (real or not) are the same people who spent countless hours making that product. That both gives them a lot of insight into the product so they can more easily determine what if anything is wrong (or where the customer has incorrect expectations) and makes them emotionally involved a lot more than your average PR/CR person at a large company which might make them easier to anger if people send abusive emails instead of being courteous.Personally, I've always gotten good support (even if it wasn't always helpfull, I've NEVER been ignored). But then I try to always remain friendly. Even if I feel a product is a complete waste of my time and money I'm not going to scream and shout and call names, I'll ask in a nice and mannered way for my money back explaining in civilised terms why I think the product isn't worth what I was charged for it.Guess what, that works a lot better. Not only do I get the support I want (even to the detriment of the company giving it), I help that company to make better products in the future by giving them reasons WHY there is something wrong and WHAT is wrong. If I can (and sometimes that happens) I even give suggestions as to HOW a defect can be fixed or what something that is wrong should be to make it right.That not only helps me (I get my problem fixed more quickly), it also helps that company not only fixing that problem but improving themselves so they can avoid the same mistake in the future and make better products because of it.It's the same attitude I like in my customers...

Hey, some of us have nothing better to do than to watch the calander for release dates and ##### about why products aren't being released on time!

Who is Mr Thunderstruck? Are you referring to me?

http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/DCForumID73/383.html#9Best regards,http://www.aerol39.com/captlogo1.gifwww.captainsim.comwww.aeroL39.com

I believe that as long as a commercial developer is prepared to take your money, there should NEVER be a case reported where the customer has been ignored, or received a rude reply, or been threatened in some way.Such a response shows a total lack of respect to the customer base and a total arrogance on the part of the publisher.Mentioning no names, two commercial publishing companies in the FS add-on business and run by a 'certain' individual recently went bust, in part due to the total contempt shown towards their customers, both corporate and private. And numerous reports indicate that it's still going on, albeit under a 'new guise'. If these people aren't prepared to learn from their past mistakes, and other commercial developers take heed of the errors their competitors are making to ensure the same mistakes aren't made by them, they simply won't last in the long run (with the obvious exception of MS themselves), because the buying public simply won't tolerate the abuse, irrespective of how 'pretty' a plane might be.If there's a legitimate complaint, it should be dealt with speedily, politely and with some humility. And if the complaint is vexatious or cannot be reasonably resolved, no threats, no protracted arguments or abuse - make a refund and try to learn by what went wrong. IMHO.Toni

Very well said Toni. After reading every single post on this issue the past few days, all I can say is that this will go down in the FS history books as "The Legendary Screwup". CS could have (and should have) handled this differently from the start. Sure there are other developers out there with extremely poor customer support/releations. I could name a few of past and present, but I won't.The fact remains that people have purchased a product and have been led to believe that the product will be delivered at a specific time and preform a specific way. It doesn't matter wether they spent $36.95, $3.95 or $395.00. A purchase was made for a specific product and as a consumer (yes you are a consumer if you purchase goods with money no matter what goods they may be) you have the right to lodge a complaint as you see fit. Some of the complaints could have been lighter in tone, but in reality, these attitudes and complaints are nothing new or different from what some of us deal with in the real world in our place of business.Huge mistakes were made accross the board with this fiasco and it will hurt the developer in the long run. Had things been handled in a more proper way with proper attitudes towards the current paying customer, the chances of losing any of those people or future paying customers would be minimal at best. But in light of the recent actions and statements by the developer, it shows lack of respect for the buyers (current and future) in the worst kind of way.Preventing someone from purchasing future products for reasons of piracy, or copyright infringement, or maliscious behaviour towards the group or anything along those lines is fine. But to make a statement that you will be prevented from future purchases because you are considered a "traitor" for asking for your money back because you couldn't deliver as promised, is ludicrous. If every developer had attitudes like that and even the current (or past ones) that are considered poor in PR, there would no longer be an FS to come back to. Could anyone imagine MS having an attitude like that?Lessons need to be learned by all developers from this incident both payware AND freeware alike, and hopefully together we can make sure that something like this never happens again. I am sure that when this product is finally released, it will be one of the finest to date. But for now, we all need to pitch in and help in repairing the damage and hope that something like this never happens again, so we won't be asking all these questions...why?Happy flying! :DMike Baumann

well....i did not buy the 727,but if i had the money,i would.i have pss products,had a question,got an answer within 10 minutes(wow!).i also have the 767pic,and although the product is great,i never got an answer from wilco,when i emailed them directly....i was sure glad that avsim was there,cos here i got an answer in just 2 minutes!!(wow wow!) :-)but what i

LOL... That's true!

>The fact remains that people have purchased a product and have been >led to believe that the product will be >delivered at a specific >time and preform a specific way. It doesn't matter wether they >spent $36.95, $3.95 or >$395>.00. Its software, software development is an in-exact science. A release data should be treated as nothing more than a target date, or a best guess. The chances of them being completed on or before that date it are at best 50/50.>A purchase was made for a specific product and as a consumer (yes >you are a consumer if you purchase goods >with money no matter what >goods they may be) you have the right to lodge a complaint as you >see fit. I this case I disagree. The product has not been released yet, so no complaint about the product itself is valid. A Tech release is nothing more than a pre-release or Beta release.Regards.Ernie.

Nice to read this! Maybe that's the time to purchase a single engine single seat to my FS2002 hangar! I have visited their website and the screenshots and reviews suggest a great GA addon. Is there any kind of evaluation period or demo for the Marchetti? >I just purchased the RealAir SF260 this week. >>The quality of the product is awesome. No doubt, the new >Cap'Sim >product will be of high quality too. >>However, the CUSTOMER SUPPORT and expectations set by >RealAir is >truly awesome! They are a small group, but I sent a few >Emails to >Rob Young and he replied in an hour! This was BEFORE I even >purchased! >>The style, professionalism, customer support, and of course >exceptional product quality will make me a RealAir repeat >customer! >>JerryG

>ALL developers have problems with poor customer relations but this>is quite often due to customer attitude and demands.. I just eyed though this thread and saw this reply from a commercial developer and was stunned. A commercial developer is living on their customers and their demands and attitudes. Too often nowadays (even in professional software business) I see a lack of understanding of what the customer need (and that is not necessarely what they want). The base of any commercial developer's software specs should be the need (the derivative of the demand) from their present customers or their intended prospects. If a commercial developer lacks in this understanding they will not survive.>the simple FACT That the CUSTOMER IS IMPORTANT The simple fact is that the customer is all that matters. Not just being important but the crucial factor for any commercial developer to survive.Just my two cents